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Games Entertainment

X Box To Be Dreamcast-Compatible - Updated 108

Posted by Hemos from the interesting-development dept.
palo0019 writes "These are tough times for Sega fans, with rampant rumors of buyouts, sellouts, and every other scenario under the sun. The latest one actually makes sense, Microsoft needs a hot developer, and Sega needs a machine to call home. Gamers.com is reporting that the Xbox will be compatible with Dreamcast games. They are also reporting that that Sega is developing "a" Virta Fighter game, that may or may not be the new Virtua Fighter X. " Interesting rumor - I tried calling both Microsoft and Sega and got a firm "No Comment" from people. Update: 01/26 12:20 PM by H :Microsoft has apparently denied the rumor once more.
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X Box To Be Dreamcast-Compatible More

X Box To Be Dreamcast-Compatible

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  • Re:Seems unlikely (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    but youre forgeting one import aspect of all this.. the dreamcast uses wince to develop games, and if you really wanna squeeze all the performance out of the dreamcast, you could develop on Sega's OS.. Microsoft was crucial in the development of the dreamcast.. read up on your gaming history before making a comment

  • Your all missing the point (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I think everyone here is missing the point. It's not a case of 'emulating' a DC -- both platforms run Windows CE. All Sega have to do is recomplie the source to produce x86 binaries & then burn the new execuatables onto a DVD (so no nead for special GB-Rom readers). Simple really.
  • Why is it whenever Slashdot has a Dreamcast-related story, the poster chooses a very poor title for the story? This story title should be appended with a ?. People who skim headlines will be very misinformed by this story, since neither Microsoft nor Sega have confirmed this at this time.

    Anyway, if it is Dreamcast news you are looking for, this is the wrong place. You should most likely be reading IGN's Dreamcast section [ign.com]. It has new Shenmue II trailers, listings of new games, and much more.

  • The pirates use modified Dreamcasts to spool the data to a hard drive--in effect, using the DC as an external GD drive. You won't be able to fully read a GD for some time, if ever.

    Being able to create pseudo-GDs is more a case of luck and lax format specs--since almost no developer has used the high-density ring in the center of a GD. The rips aren't nearly the quality of PSX burns either--a friend tried DoA2(locks up repeatedly after about 15min) and Capcom Vs. SNK(loses music periodically), with less-than-stellar results.
  • Which is a pretty funny claim anyhow- seen the POVbench scores for the PS2? (I was impressed they could even _compile_ POV to run on the 'emotion engine'). You have to continually remember that Microsoft may be and probably is lying outright to you. It's like continually remembering that spammers lie as you continue to be slammed by their claims day after day after day. Just because MS has claimed for the Nth time that 'XBox will be more powerful than anything in the world!' doesn't mean it's not a midrange PC with nice NVidia graphics acceleration and midrange CPU and HD.
  • There's the proof.

    Yep, the proof that emulation is definitely a possibility.

    Look, people, what's not said in these weasel word press releases is as or even more important than what is said. Being publicly held companies, making false statements can get them in serious hot water. So if they don't deny something (such as emulation), it's probably because they can't.

    Sega didn't deny halting Dreamcast production, they talked about their commitment to the platform. Microsoft didn't deny the emulation plans. I'd bet a C-note that Dreamcast will be emulated on X-Box, it fits the facts (Sega losing money, X-Box needing games when it first comes out, and these carefully worded denials.)
  • Plus there are the issues of making sure that the X-Box's DVD drive could read the Dreamcast's GD-Roms.

    Not at all. Y'see, if this is the plan, then instead of (or as well as) GD-ROMs, Dreamcast developers would make XBox DVDs. That adds scads of room for an emulator program, no disk switching needed.

    Sega has only recently decided to discontinue the Dreamcast hardware thus I don't think they would have been considering this X-Box angle previously, though it is possible.

    My bet is that the discontinuation of the Dreamcast is *because* Microsoft was willing to do a Dreamcast emulator, not that these are separate decisions. Sega found that building the Dreamcast was making them dive into the red, but they were getting money from developers. They don't want to abandon the platform completely, because those developers (and their money) go away and never, ever come back. But make an emulator, give Microsoft a cut, and suddenly they've got all profits, no new losses. Meanwhile Microsoft gets more games and a pop culture icon associated with their platform (Sonic and the gang.) It makes too much sense not to be true.
  • I tried calling both Microsoft and Sega and got a firm "No Comment" from people.

    Are you sure that wasn't the answering machine you got a "no comment" from, at 2AM?(11PM in Redmond, and suffice it to say pretty damn late wherever in the country Sega USA is located)
  • When the Dreamcast market collapses and you can pick them up for 20 UKP at CEX [cex.co.uk], and the good folk over at NetBSD [netbsd.org] get their port [netbsd.org] ready for primetime, this will be a great source of cheap, powerful hardware. I won't say the B word, but you know that you can build a parallel supercomputer in your shed...
  • You should soon be able to skip the PSX part and use nGine [ngine.de] or DreamSNES directly on the, errr, emulated Dreamcast.

    (are there really 5000 games for the PSX and SNES? That many?)
  • > refuses to boot non signed-DVDs

    And not even Microsoft would be stupid enough to have two verification keys, one of which wasn't used normally, but was used if the first one failed, so it could be replaced by an attacker to get their code accepted without stopping code signed with the first key running. Well actually, Microsoft were that stupid, but I think even they won't be stupid enough to do it twice.

    See e.g. here [counterpane.com] or here [amug.org].
    --

  • Re:WOW! (Score:1)

    by juuri ( 7678 )
    I too was suprised by this. Maybe just maybe the slashdot editors do really still read the site.... miracles never cease.
  • When asked about the rumors, a Microsoft spokesperson issued a firm denial and reiterated that "the Xbox will only include the Intel CPU and two Nvidia chips to handle graphics and sound capabilities, and it will have three times the power of any game console available at launch."

    Don't you love how they tossed that little marketing tidbit in there?

    -- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?

  • With today's JIT-style code translation systems and the fact that the P3 can outperform the SH4 cycle-for-cycle anyway I wouldn't say it would be impossible for the Xbox to emulate a Dreamcast.

    As for the different graphics subsystem on the DC, it would be trivial to bung a translation layer between the two systems. In fact the hardest part of the DC to emulate would be its curious bumpmapping format, although the Dx8-style pixel shaders on Xbox could do a lot to help this out. The shadow volumes supported by DC could also be translated into equivalent stencil-buffer operations too.

    Just my two-penneth - as an engine coder on a DC game who's now working on an Xbox title I've got some idea what I'm talking about ;)

  • If the X-box could play Dreamcast games, then the continuing sale of those games would take money from Microsoft and put it into Sega's pockets. I don't think Microsoft will do that.

    But that royalty can be renegotiated as part of the deal, so that both parties come out in front. As long as there's something in it for both sides (and there is) deals can be done.

    I still think this rumour is probably false, but by no means impossible.

  • The Dreamcast compatibility was apparently hinted at by an 'anonymous source'. Microsoft and Sega spokespersons deny everything [dailyradar.com].

    It's just some half-baked rumour - there's loads going around relating in some way to the Xbox. Like Halo for Windows and Mac apparently being cancelled (this rumour was described as 'a load of bollocks [bungie.org]' by a Bungie spokesman...)

    So, take everything you read with a pinch (or two) of salt...

    Ford Prefect
  • You could if your CD-ROM's fucking firmware could deal with the big physical fucking gap in the middle of the physical fucking disc. The HD area of a GD is a fucking ISO9660 filesystem with a boot block. The spiral is longer and thinner, but it's still motherfucking pits and lands punched out of a motherfucking piece of foil so that you can have just like every other fucking normal cd, only instead of 6115200 of the fuckers on the spiral you have about 9182208.

    Are you forgetting that a cdrom drive is just a fucking piece of hardware that shoots a laser onto a disc and sees if it reflects or not? The density of the spiral on a GD is not much higher than on an 80 minute cd. I would venture to say that most commercial CDROM drives have laser diodes with focus fine enough not to spill over the edges of the spiral. It's a matter of math and it's in the SOFTWARE INSIDE THE FUCKING CDROM DRIVE NOT IN THE ELECTRONICS.

    How in the fuck did you get the comment bonus without a fucking brain?

    ~GoRK

  • Re:Seems unlikely (Score:5)

    by GoRK ( 10018 ) on Thursday January 25, 2001 @11:51PM (#480191) Homepage Journal
    The high density area of GD-ROM is really nothing more than a cd with a thinner and therefore longer spiral. A normal DVD-ROM mechanism or a good CD-ROM mechanism with firmware to handle the bizzare physical format of the disc can read a GD-ROM. It's not about the hardware. Use standard hardware. Use special firmware!

    As far as promoting the sale of games for a competing system, do you really think that M$ wouldn't get a kickback on SEGA's royalties if they made their system compatible.

    All that aside, I really wish that slashdot would stop it with the game bunk that they've been pushing out recently. Honestly, have /. editors after so many years not yet realized probably around 95% of console game news that originates as rumors is total bullshit?

    For a real bit of console news, try that the first 3rd party developed (license-free, reverse-engineered) program that uses the Sega Dreamcast's ethernet adaptor was released yesterday. It is an app that allows you to upload and execute compiled elf binaries using TCP/IP. Shouldn't be too much longer before we can see some homebrew games or other software (like Operating Systems) that take advantage of this.

    ~GoRK

  • The rumor/press release denying it continues (Score:3)

    by Drakino ( 10965 ) on Thursday January 25, 2001 @11:47PM (#480192) Journal
    What is it with the rumors? So many different ones about Sega, lets see:

    1. Nintendo is buying Sega
    2. Sega is stopping production of the Dreamcast
    3. Sega is developing for the PS2
    4. The X-Box will support GD-ROM games from the DC

    What next?

    I also love the rumors about the iPaq handheld.

    1. A 64 Meg version will be released any day now. It will be the H3635, H3640, H3660, or the H3670.
    2. An iPaq with built in wireless (Wireless what?)
    3. An iPaq running at 412mHz and 64MB Ram.

    Even better are all the Linux ones involving MS

    1. IE is being ported to Linux
    2. Office is being ported to Linux
    3. MS is making their own Linux

    Why do I even bother to read any "news" sites anymore. All it is now is a big social rumor circle, with some saying this is true, others denying it, all while the actual companies sit back and laugh.
  • You don't have to own maracas to play the game though. This seems to be a common misconception. Works perfectly fine with the standard controller, although it's not as fun that way.
  • Actually, Sega of America (support center in Texas) is 24/7. If you call at what was 11PM in Redmond, you would probably be talking to my sorry butt at 9PM Central right before my lunch break. So don't talk long!
  • As other have said, this has been done before but it still made me laugh to think of initially... imagine this Quake session:

    [User accidentally fires rocket too close for four hundredth time]
    [Up pops PaperClip!]
    PaperClip: I see you are trying to rocket jump. Would you like more help on rocket jumping?
    [Rail from other gamer obscured by PaperClip comes through PaperClip, killing user]
    Gamer: Damn you @^!#&@!$#*& PaperClip! I just can't aim!

  • Sorry to reply to myself, but I felt I needed to elaborate on why Dreamcast would be a competing system even if no more were produced.

    Remember, Sega makes a loss on every Dreamcast console they sell. Where they plan to get that money back is from game licenses. For every Dreamcast game sold, some of the money goes into Sega's pockets. Microsoft being who they are, it's very likely that you'd need to pay a similar fee to get your game to boot on the X-box, despite it being the same game that can run on a PC.

    If the X-box could play Dreamcast games, then the continuing sale of those games would take money from Microsoft and put it into Sega's pockets. I don't think Micosoft will do that.

  • Seems unlikely (Score:3)

    by c=sixty4 ( 35259 ) <armalyte@hotmail.com> on Thursday January 25, 2001 @10:19PM (#480197) Homepage
    This seems unlikely. The Dreamcast uses its own proprietary gigabyte CD standard for games, which AFAIK requires dedicated hardware. X-Box uses DVDs, and a specially made DVD-ROM which could read GB-CD would raise the price of the X-box, as well as promiting the sale of games for a competing system.
  • I guess that would mean that the XBox runs linux [slashdot.org] by emulation.
  • Redmond Washington, April 1, 2001: Microsoft announced today that the operating system that will be driving the X-box will be called X-windows. Games compatible with the new X-box will sport a large stylized X on the sleeve to help the customer easily identify software compatible with the new system.

    In separate news, Microsoft announced suits against upwards of 35 programmers and several hardware manufacturers for using the term "X" or "X-windows." Ballmer stated "We don't want consumers to be confused in the marketplace. X is a very strong branding image and is a registered trademark owned by Microsoft (76041367 and 76041368). These other individuals and companies are introducing confusion into the marketplace."

    Microsoft's above trademarks cover the use of the X trademark in conjuction with games, operating systems that can run games, chat and message services involving gaming situations, e-mail, text-editing, and OS utilities supporting gaming.

    Insiders at Microsoft hinted that Microsoft is willing to drop the suit against companies distributing UNIX and LINUX products if they remove all games and ability to play games on their product or cease the use of the X trademark in conjuction with above products.

  • That news release was obviously fake people, but don't be too fooled. Those trademark numbers are legit (look them up on www.uspto.gov) and it does cover the above mentioned areas.

    Let's hope it just remains a bad joke.... :(

  • Bzzt. If that were true, you could simply put the commercially released DC games into your CD-ROM drive and read them. You can't. (you CAN read burnt games, but that's because they're in a different format than the original commerical game)

    The executible CD is a hack. Games that run on 80min CD's usually have sound or video ripped out.

    Putting games on GD-ROMs DID stop pirates-- for a few weeks. Somebody figured out how to use special hardware to access the data, and since then, the games have been available.
    --

  • Other rumors:

    1. Sega ingested Coke and pop rocks, and died from a ruptured stomach
    2. Sega broke its neck trying to do a headspin, a popular breakdancing move
    3. Sega found a JATO takeoff system, attached it to its car, and died from the explosion
  • Not surprising at all. The 'specs' for the Xbox have been constantly changing, and I'll happily admit I haven't been keeping track of them; Those numbers were pulled from one of the original Xbox announcements way back when. Even with a 733 and some buff video card, it doesn't hold enough power to emulate the DC. The SH4 main CPU in the DC runs at 200MHz (check for yourself, I *DO* know that number is accurate) which gives you 4-to-1 opcode ratio, not enuff (yes, yes, opcodes!=MHz!=MIPS, but it gives a nice number for arguement here) That still doesn't include the cpu emulation for sound. The Nvidia is a real 3d card, while the powerVR is more of a 2d tile accelerator with Zbuffer and perspective correction; far to different to allow the Nvidia to 'wrap' the powerVR instructions to take load off of the CPU. While I have no doubt that your numbers are based on a current spec sheet of the Xbox, I do have doubt whether or not those specs will make it into the production models. While I would actually love to see this rumour come true, I do have to point out the feasability issues.

    Toodles D. Asshole :)

  • Base-less rumour (Score:3)

    by Toodles ( 60042 ) on Thursday January 25, 2001 @11:51PM (#480204) Homepage
    Sorry, I gotta hit the the Bullshit Alarm on this one.



    Xbox is based on Intel hardware. Something like a Celeron 400 CPU and Nvidia geforce video. Dreamcast uses a SH4 and ARM7, respectively. Completely different set of hardware. Even if they were able to read the disc properly (not bloody likely, read above posts, I'll not repeat) they won't be able to do anything with it. They can't do any kind of software emulation; the cpu is not powerful enough for low level full speed emulation of both the ARM and SH4 (the sound interface isn't a DAC you can just ship PCM data to like sound cards; its it completely separate system, with its own RAM that contain binary executable code as well as data. The ARM would have to be emulated as well). The Nvidia works completely different than PowerVR chip in the Dreamcast; again, more emulation done by this one poor Intel CPU.


    Sega is looking into selling the chips for use in other components; this is a granted. However, it is very late in the Xbox development cycle to add this major feature to the Xbox. Not to mention OMG the heat this thing would produce. This gives no mention of the hardware needed (How do I play Phantasy Star online w/o a modem? How would I use my Seaman microphone or Samba de Amigo maracas?) This is a pipe dream.


    Just cause a rumour is posted on some other website on the Internet doesn't make it any less a rumour, Slashdot. I personally am really curious who at Andover is getting paid off for all of the anti-Sega BS thats been coming down from here in the past week. (Remember the 'Sega dropping the DC' from two days ago?)


    Toodles

  • I'm surprised that nobody knew this. This compatibility is absolutely not possible. Dreamcast games are not written for WindowsCE (except for some early ones) but for the close-to-the-metal SegaOS (guess why!). That means serveral things:

    A) Lots of SH4 ASM
    B) No Win32
    C) Direct coding to the PowerVR, no DirectX used.

    The whole situation is made more complicated by the fact that the PVR chipset has to have code written specially for it. That means that although DirectX does work with it, it works suboptimally. That also means that most games ditch D3D and use their own routines to access the graphics card. Hence, these games would not work on an XBox.
  • ...Microsoft has flatly denied rumors that its Xbox console will house the all-in-one DC chip...
    So what? All this means is that an X-box won't hold any hardware that wasn't announced. Who's to say that they won't suddenly announce some new features? Like DreamCast emulation. That would be yet another thing for Microsoft marketing to ooh and aah about.
    ..."the Xbox will only include the Intel CPU and two Nvidia chips to handle graphics and sound capabilities, and it will have three times the power of any game console available at launch."
    They failed to deny Dreamcast compatibility, just Dreamcast hardware. It sounds like they're saying, "we're sticking to our original hardware, but because it's so much faster and better than any other game hardware, we will be able to do Dreamcast without breaking a sweat."

  • Sorry if I was insufficiently clear. I don't give a whoozit about the X-box or any other game console. You're absolutely right, it is just a run-of-the-mill PC.

    The only difference between the PC Gaming Platorm and the X-box platform is that the X-box is static - developers get to work on a finalized set of hardware, so the get to work on tweaking to perfection, instead of trying to make it compatible with many many different configs.

    My point simply is, that Microsoft has not actually denied Dreamcast compatibility, just that the X-box would not include dreamcast hardware. With Sega's help, the effort would be trivial.

  • It isn't /. that is hammering Sega. Every news source I subscribe to that covers games, consoles, or electronics is on the same bandwagon.

    /. is only here to give you a link to news other sites have posted, maybe a little more eyeballs for something that would be otherwise obscure, and more importantly to give you one place to look for geek-news. Oh, and a place to sound off about it.

    So quit picking on them.

    Failure is not an option.
  • not saying its true though.. there is a possibility it is:

    VFX, why not just call it Virtua Fighter 4? (note that Konami's Metal Gear Solid 2 for Xbox is named MGSX and Silent Hill 2 for Xbox is SHX)

    The Xbox controller looks amazingly similar to the Dreamcast's. [consoles.org]

    Sega has announced a PC addon card [dailyradar.com] that enables Dreamcast game playing (probably easy to integrate in the Xbox).

    Yu Suzuki mentioned he wanted to release Shenmue 2 before the Xbox came out. [consoles.org] How does the release of a new console affect the release of his game?

    There has long been rumblings out of MS employees of a startling and huge announcement re: Xbox at TGS.

    Gamers.com reports Bill Gates mentioning a bit of missing technology in the Xbox.

    Gamers.com also reports that Famitsu mentions a huge developer going Xbox at the TGS (previously assumed to be Square...)

    Sega has admitted to having talks with Microsoft earlier last year. [consoles.org]

    Of course, Microsoft provided a version of WindowsCE for the DC console..

  • Celery 400 and GeForce 1? What the fuck are you talking about? P3-733 and nV25, which hasn't even been named yet. It's highly unlikely this is true, yes, but atm you sound like an asshole who doesn't know what he's talking about.

    -----------------------

  • And what have you used on it that actually uses WinCE?

    -----------------------

  • but according to the article the dreamcast won't actualle be emulated...they should put the chip inside. Which makes the denial from Microsoft interesting: they're basically saying that the only graphics hardware will be nVidia. What they're not saying is that the Xbox won't have Dreamcast compatibility. So maybe emulation is the way the're gonna go.
  • check here [segatech.com]
  • That coupled with all the rumours suggesting that Sega are going to duck out of the console market and push on a games dev only basis adds a bit more believability to this story. IMO Sega are too far behind in the console race - the last time they were ahead was the Megadrive. It all went downhill from there.

    Having said that, I don't believe this story either ;^)

  • Of course, it doesn't really count as fact checking to call up the PR firms and get the standard "no comment".

    But I'm not being critical... it's certainly a good rumor.

    -rt-
  • Several of the Panasonic cd-rw's (makers of the GD-ROM) have been known to read GD's with certain versions of their firmware.

    That's just a myth. The burner in question was the Yamaha (Yamaha makes the GD-ROM, not Panasonic) CDR400, but the "hacked" firmware would just make the burner useless.

    Consider: why would pirates go to all the trouble of using custom hardware to extract GD-ROM data using the dreamcast GD-ROM drive itself if they could just hunt down an old CDR400 and use that to rip? Also, if this myth were true you bet you'd be seeing CDR400's on ebay for $500+.

    ---

  • It just keeps happening, I get my hopes up becuase the headline reads: "X Box To Be Dreamcast-Compatible" .... uhm.. Why was it not "X Box *MIGHT* Be Dreamcast-Compatible" ???!?!? It seems like this is happening more often.
    Misleading headlines. If both companies DENIED this report, (and it doesn't take much reading into the actual artice to find this out)

    WHY REPORT WITH SUCH AN IRONCLAD HEADLINE?!

    *whew*
    I almost lost it.
    IANAJ - But that's just plain bad Journalism.
  • From the linked article:
    Credible sources, who prefer to remain anonymous, told us that Bill Gates and Microsoft will announce at the spring Tokyo Game Show that the Microsoft Xbox will include the Dreamcast chipset, allowing it to play all Dreamcast titles. This announcement is expected to come on the first day of the show (March 30) when Bill Gates delivers his keynote address. And while not finalized, we have been told that the DC chipset is already incorporated into the Xbox, although at this time, the DC-compatible Xbox has yet to be finalized as the market version of the system.

    Yes, dedicated hardware is needed and is supposed to be provided for.

  • Remember, this is Microsoft, where Bill Gates discussing market dumping in magazine interviews. When they priced WinCE below cost, he explained that they didn't make money on DOS 1.0, but by becoming the standard, they did well later.

    The XBox will be sold at a loss. MS needs to be in the console/IA market, and needs software for their system. MS doesn't need the cash, but they need the presence in this market.

    If people hack the X-box, Linux users will by up the suckers to setup Linux boxes. While these boxes cost MS money, and generate no sales revenue, it is another X-box sold. MS needs to have a big chunk of the marketshare, and if they can get another 5%-10% of the market this way, they will.

    When you are a game developer, the bigger MS's X-box seems, the more likely you are to develop for it. Expect the X-box to be hacked either within 48 hours of shipping, or before shipping with MS getting some presales to Linux hackers.

    Alex
  • MS doesn't need to make money now, they need to establish a large presence in the market, then games will be written for it. If Linux users buy these by the dozen, and MS loses $10million on Linux users hacking, but they look like the console success of the year, MS will be happy to piss the money away.
  • dreamcast games dont accually run off of ce, they also only use it for function such as the web browser. because of this there is no compatibility through ce, unless they wanted to make a crappy emu, but it is MS, so you never know.

  • Jeff, (Score:3)

    by The_Messenger ( 110966 ) on Thursday January 25, 2001 @10:20PM (#480223) Homepage Journal
    Next time try saying something like, "Hi, can I speak to your manager? This is Bill Gates. [waits two mintes] Hello, manager? How are you doing, sir? Well, just fine myself. Bill Gates? No, my name is Jeff Bates and I'm with the nationally acclaimed computer information site <mumble>Slashdot**</mumble>, and I'd like some more information on the recent news that [blah blah blah...]". My guess is that instead your call went more along the lines of, "Hidely-ho! Me Hemos! Linux good! Give me information or I will sick the wifey on you!"

    ** Note: Slashdot is actually a sham, a haven for immature "Linux users" (Windows-using wannabes) who provide flamebait for each other and pageviews for Malda. But Hemos shouldn't tell that the MS or Sega.

    Damn, this is some good crack!

    All generalizations are false.



  • well, you're closer than the parent post, but you're still not there.

    There is NOTHING AT ALL proprietary about the dreamcast's discs. They're not wierd. They're not GIG-discs. They're just 80 min CD's. BAM!

    Want proof? check out www.sub-list.com where you can download just about any dreamcast game you want, self booting, and burn the bin or cue file. Saying that adding the ability of reading DC disks to the Xbox would raise cost is like saying adding the capability of the dreamcast to play audio CD's would raise the cost.

    Echo the Dolphin. Biggest DC game i've seen, disc useage wise. takes up 79:57 of an 80 min disc. That's it people. they're 80 min CD's. The pirated games work, by, IIRC, making the DC think that they are playing an audio CD for the first coupla grooves, and then kick into the game. The first gen pirates had the Utopia Boot Disc - a disc with 800K on it, pop it in, then it says "Insert fake game" and loads up.

    The "GIG DISC" bullshit from sega had 2 purposes - to disuade pirates (oops) and to make it sound like a technicalogical advance, which its not. "GIG" refers to the capacity the disc could hold if it was compressed.

    in your grill and stuff




    insert clever line here
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • Re:Base-less rumour - (Score:3)

    by Smitty825 ( 114634 ) on Friday January 26, 2001 @08:29AM (#480226) Homepage Journal
    It was called the Pentium III because at the time Intel wasn't shipping a Celeron at over 400MHz. If you look at the specifications posted on the web(I'd suggest staring at xbox.ign.com [ign.com]) and look at the specs on the processor, you'll discover that it looks very much like a Celeron (ie, same cache size)
  • The story isnt that the XBox is going to emulate the Dreamcast but that Microsoft will include the $30 Dreamcast-all-in-one chip that Sega have created for use in set-top boxes and that 'Dreamcast on a PCI card' we have heard about.

    Think about how the PS2 plays PS1 games, they have a PS1 chip in the PS2. The PS2 does not emulate the PS1. The same _could_ be done for the DC and XBox combo...

    While it seems a little far fetched at the moment its certanly not impossible.

    Another thing...Did anyone remember the first XBox footage we saw that had that few seconds of a game that looked remarkably like Sonic Adventure? Perhaps they were trying to tell us something?
  • "Dreamcast DOES run WinCE"
    Incorrect.
    "Dreamcast CAN run WinCE"
    Correct.
    Most DC games don't use WinCE.
  • Although the gamers.com article raises some eyebrows, both companies have already denied the allegations. FWIW: Xbox-Dreamcast Rumors Denied [dailyradar.com]

  • *gasp* *choke* (Score:4)

    by legLess ( 127550 ) on Thursday January 25, 2001 @10:23PM (#480230) Journal
    a slashdot editor checking ... facts

    head light ... must lie down ...

    question: is control controlled by its need to control?
    answer: yes
  • The Nvidia hardware should easily do everything the PowerVR 2DC 3D chipset can do and more. The DVD should be able to read the Sega format GDROM with a firmware update. Considering all this, I would have to agree that it shouldn't take much to do this with a little bit of hardware or even emulation if they chose. The hardest part of emulation is figuring out what the other person did so you can recreate it properly. If they are working together (if) then it shouldn't be to difficult to do.
  • http://stomped.com/shared/nsystem/comments/13850_1 _page_1.php DailyRadar has recieved official denials of this whole thing, but their server is actin' funky right now...
  • argh
    Click Here [stomped.com] for information...
  • Since Bleem is developing a Psx emulator, like they did for the PC, for the dreamcast, This would actualy alow you run and old psx game.

    Furthermore You can use the old nintendo emulator for the psx as a game.

    so

    Xbox 5 games
    Dreamcast 50 games
    Psx 5000 games
    Nintendo 5000 games

    mmmh?

  • Very good point. Too bad whoever keeps making up these rumors about Micro$0ft and Sega didn't think about.

    Don't forget Netbsd [netbsd.org], DreamSNES [mc.pp.se] and Bleem for DC [bleem.com].

    It's a damn good thing console gaming companies make most of their profit on the games. I would suspect Sony is actually taking a small loss on the PS2, as the hardware is insanely expensive. It makes sense that you'd sell them the first hit cheap, and take profit after they're addicted. This probably explains why Bleem is still around.

    The rumor is only made more plausable because of this, but, all the same, I think I'll /ignore anything more anyone but Sega has to say about their system. My heart has stopped twice over the past week, already, upon notification that I might not be able to pick up any more great games like Jet Grind Radio.

  • Anything that makes it more likely that we'll get Shenmue 2 is a good thing...
    --
  • This is kind of a good sign. Maybe once the X-box is properly hacked, it will be easy to make it "compatible" with other CD-based consoles?

    If nothing else, emulators could just be tweaked for the version of linux that will inevitably be ported to the X-box.


    My mom is not a Karma whore!

  • Lets read between the lines quickly:

    "Sega games would look great on Xbox, but it's absolutely untrue that Xbox will contain Dreamcast hardware," Microsoft's spokesperson told Daily Radar.

    What if they are not porting the chipset, but rather the games?

  • > If you remember... the Xbox runs on a right off the shelf Pentium.
    > Now, I don't know a lot about linux, but if you can put the kernel libs on a cd that the XBox can read..., it wouldn't require any special kernel hacking

    The kind of processor used in the machine is the least significant problem here.

    My fears:

    If the firmware refuses to boot non signed-DVDs (ie: loads code to memory, then check that there is a signature for it on the disc itself), it can be very difficult to boot non MS approved software on the X-box.

    Hacking around this would require rewriting various low-level components (BIOS/firmware), which would be extremely difficult, and would need physically modifying the machine (unless you have a BIOS/firware patcher that would be signed, which would be really unlikely).

    Do you wonder why encription is now exportable ? This is probably the answer. Anyway, expect most future hardware to have this kind of protection.

    And don't forget that under DMCA, it will be illegal for USIan to defeat such a protection. In that case, it would be a unhackable product. Plain and simple.

    Cheers,

    --fred

  • Well, Sega's plan from the start has been to 'evolve' the dreamcast platform to Set-top boxes. DVD players. Plans for such integration can be read about as far back as Feb 1999 in MVC, a trade paper.

    Sega, to make such a thing feasible has worked to create what's termed "Dreamcast on a chip" (DCoaC).

    And Sega has always been tied to MS in one way or another, even including rumors of a buyout earlier this year. A buyout would have given MS much needed JPN created software and a strong lineup for JPN. But it was rumored MS didn't want to pla ball since Sega was pushing for DC compatability in the XBox.

  • True (Score:2)

    by Kalren ( 152196 )
    http://boards.gaming-age.com/message.asp?topic=879 5611&replies=33

    " Well.. believe it, as it is true
    At least according to people that we know (who will remain nameless), that work directly with the Xbox, inside MS.
    DC2, here we come!

    --Jim"

    Jim happens to be the Senior Editor of Gaming-Age.

    Despite MS and Sega's denial, It's true.

    Funny, that MS denies it since they also denied the XBox initially :)

  • What is far more likely is that future games from Sega will be dual-platform games. That is, the same CD-ROM/DVD-ROM will come with both the Dreamcast version and the X-Box version. Also, yes, I know that current Dreamcast games come on GD-ROMS which can't be read in a PC CD-ROM drive. However, the Dreamcast can also boot ordinary CD-ROM's.

    Sega had previously announced plans to use the dual-boot strategy for releasing Windows/Dreamcast games.

    Cryptnotic

  • One of the things that has hurt the dreamcast is that it's games are actually fairly easy to pirate with a standard CD burner. So you can create Dreamcast CDs with standard CD hardware, so I'd imagine that working out how to read them is quite within the relm of possibility.

    Of course, this is simply hypothesis, but on the other hand, the evil warez-romz-cdz-mongers have to make their dreamcast-cd dumpz somehow, and given how common they are, it can't be THAT hard...
  • You know, this would actually be VERY nice...

    Ever since the dreamcast's release, it's games have been extremely impressive. Not just graphically, (Yes they're pretty) but as far as gameplay and innovation. Sega has been churning out some very top notch pieces of software for their system, many of which have sadly gone unnoticed, or not been enough to save the dreamcast. Samba de amigo is reputedly awsome, if you can get past the $200 pricetag for the game (you have to buy 2 maraccas at $70 apiece to get the full experience) Grandia 2 and Skies of arcadia are getting incredible reviews as far as RPGs go. Guilty gear X and Marvel vs Capcom 2 are probably the two prettiest fighting games I've seen in a long time, in terms of graphics.

    etc, and so on.
    The problem with the dreamcast has definatly not been a lack of quality gams. So the idea that these games might survive and endure beyond the dreamcast's now dismal-looking lifespan should make quite a few people happy. If nothing else, it beats waiting around the extra couple of years for Dreamcast emulators to become usable...
  • There are about 200 games out for the Dreamcast, many of which rank as 5 star titles... Soul Calibur, Shenmue, etc...

    Josh Sisk
  • (if it were true?) Personally, I don't like the way the console industry is going. They are trying to make a computer only for games that you use with your tv. There has always been a good destinction between console games and computer games. The direction consoles are going is going to kill "the console game". Maybe if Sega and Microsoft teamed up, they could keep Microsoft from killing what we all love. Why am I going to buy the X-Box when I have a computer that does the same thing? If the X-Box uses Windows, we can expect to see the same games on our computers later on. Of course, what I just said may make no sense, cause I have been ignoring the X-Box the best I can.
  • If people hack the X-box, Linux users will by up the suckers to setup Linux boxes. While these boxes cost MS money, and generate no sales revenue, it is another X-box sold. MS needs to have a big chunk of the marketshare, and if they can get another 5%-10% of the market this way, they will.

    But Xboxen sold to Linux hackers won't be generating revenue from Xbox games. The sales may count towards marketshare figures, but they won't actually make MS any money unless the buyers use the box for the intended purpose once in a while.

    Personally I HOPE this thing is violated ten ways the day it is released. It would be fun. I'm just not counting on it.

  • Re:hmmm... (Score:3)

    by IronChef ( 164482 ) on Thursday January 25, 2001 @10:49PM (#480248)

    If MS is smart they'll engineer the Xbox so that nothing unapproved will boot on it. I'd love to see Xbox Linux but I doubt it will be easy to do, if it's possible at all.

    (putting on flame-retardant suit...)

  • Oh well, it seems MSFT seems to be in a constant state of denial, whether it`s good news or bad. But please do notice that you just referred to a ZDNet page (read: MSFT sponsored).

    Seriously, for a minute one would say that DC support for X-Box is a win for both X-Box, and Sega. The only reason why announcements like this are being denied is either bad timing (for some strategic marketting reason), or the fact that it`s simply not true. So I`m pretty sceptical about those rumours. Then, ofcourse, on the other hand, phasing out hardware while keeping software going is a rather peculiar strategy as well.. too bad that one comes from the SEGA side.

    At least I`m glad CmdrTaco didn`t call them. First he would have tried SEGA:

    CmdrTaco: Hello
    Sega: Yes ?
    CmdrTaco: Ok. (click)

    being so excited with the new found evidence, he`d prepare for the one thing he would never ever do in his whole life.. Taking a deep breath, he went:

    CmdrTaco: Hi
    Gates: No..
    CmdrTaco: No ?.. Uh oh, must be a joke you made... hey everybody and their brother just submitted that not only your DNS is not working properly, but that you are planning a worldwide conspiracy with SEGA.. got some juicy nuggets on that?
    Gates: ??... and ... you are.. ??
    CmdrTaco: CmdrTaco. You know me, we`ve allready met in court the other day.
    Gates: Ah yes, you run that anti-MSFT website.
    CmdrTaco: I know. Isn`t it cool..
    Gates: (click)
    CmdrTaco: How rude..

  • ... Dreamcast uses Hitcahci's SuperH 4 CPU. I couldn't find its specifications, but it is widely known that it's 128-bit. That's right, 4 times as much as Intel's IA32 (which is used inside the X-Box). Against such a thing, even big-endian/little-endian controversies stand still.

    Now, the Dreamcast is only a year and a half old, and it had very successful hardware for its time. It seems extremely unlikely for me that a PC can emulate such a relatively modern console as this one.

    It seems more likely to me (though unprobable), that Microsoft will support Dreamcast's APIs. However, again, optimization for SH4 must be very different from the optimization for Pentiums.

  • Thanks!!!

    By the way, check out these sites

    Skin Cancer Humor [jokezine.com]

    Hitler Humor [go.com]

    krystal_blade

  • Oh, this is great. (Score:3)

    by krystal_blade ( 188089 ) on Thursday January 25, 2001 @10:27PM (#480252)
    With Microsoft's known proclivity towards producing software that doesn't work, we can now look forward to the following features of the X-Box/Dreamcast system.

    1. Dreamcast games work, but, the user must successfully cut the disk into a square first.

    2. One of the features included will be the ever popular "gamers assistant" who will pop up in mid game, (usually when you are rolling along quite fine) and ask "May I be of assistance?" The assistant will be quite useless if you happen to get stuck in a game, producing only clickable buttons that take you even further into obscurity.

    3. Every game sold for the X-Box will actually contain only a 6 meg coded instruction for downloading the actual game. The rest of the disk will be filled with advertisements on how great Microsoft really is.

    4. Hitting all buttons but one brings up a special screen, where you can view all the developers names in better 3D than any game available. It will be called an "Easter Egg"

    5. Attempting to save the game will spawn going through 19 different cycles of power on, power off, reload the software, obtain a firmware upgrade, install it, and try the file parameter again.

    krystal_blade

  • Couldn't it be possible that you could add the necessary hardware in as an add on? A PC Card perhaps? All the denials seem to suggest there will be no dreamcast hardware in the XBox, but nobody has denied being able to play Dreamcast GD-ROMs on the XBox, have they?
  • Both companies released press releases today stating that it was NOT TRUE.

    --
  • http://www.dailyradar.com/news/game_news_6761.html

    There's the proof. Sorry. I'd like to see it too.

    --

  • It will be easyer to hack linux onto this.
    If you remember... the Xbox runs on a right off the shelf Pentium.
    Now, I don't know a lot about linux, but if you can put the kernel libs on a cd that the XBox can read..., it wouldn't require any special kernel hacking

  • My understanding is that developers stopped making games only weeks after the box was released to the public. That may or may not be true- but it certainly smells of the Apple IIc of game consoles.

    A vampire is careful not to suck the blood of a dead person. Microsoft should be, too.

    ljbalkjh lkj salas lkjl. [ridiculopathy.com]

  • Why should I care if the X-Box plays those crappy Dreamcast games. Now if it played ATARI games ...
  • Is M and S still free?

    Virta is finnish for electricity flow...no, I don't think that means...?
  • "Interesting rumour" Heh heh... easily confused by the alternate spelling.
  • This doesn't require dedicated hardware, so to speak, rather, it just requires dedicated firmware. Several of the Panasonic cd-rw's (makers of the GD-ROM) have been known to read GD's with certain versions of their firmware. It is possible that Microsoft has put this information to use.

  • Interesting rumour - I tried calling both Microsoft and Sega and got a firm "No Comment" from people.

    wow... i think that's the most journalistic thing i've seen on this site in months. congrats!

    --saint
    ----
  • I have to agree with part of this comment. For the X-Box system to be able to run Dreamcast games the Dreamcast's hardware would need to be 'emulated' at some level. Either the Dreamcast's hardware would be integrated into a small IC or set of ICs, similar to the Apple II emulating MegaII chip in the Apple IIgs, or in software provided either in rom, unlikely, or on a DVD, i.e. boot with the DVD to load the Dreamcast emulator then insert the game's GD-Rom. Plus there are the issues of making sure that the X-Box's DVD drive could read the Dreamcast's GD-Roms.

    Although any of this is technically possible, I don't feel that it's probable. Sega has only recently decided to discontinue the Dreamcast hardware thus I don't think they would have been considering this X-Box angle previously, though it is possible. At this late in the game it really doesn't seem realistic that MS would take on the task of integrating another machine. They are, I'm sure, busy enough testing the X-Box to ensure it's own native functionality.

    However, it's always possible that at some point after the X-Box's release a Dreamcast emulator may be available. Maybe.

    My two cents,
    Kataklyzm
  • Yeah, I'm amazed as well Kudos, Hemos!

  • Just watch out... if this is true, we'll soon have a new innovative SONIC blue screen of death from Microsoft whenever a game crashes!

  • Exclusive transcript of the conversation (Score:5)

    by dervish121 ( 245708 ) on Friday January 26, 2001 @02:40AM (#480267)
    MS Tech: Hello, Microsoft technical support.
    Hemos: Is Sega going to be making games for the X Box?
    MS Tech: Can you hold for one moment. (muzak)
    Hello, Microsoft technical support.
    Hemos: Is Sega going to be making games for the X Box?
    MS Tech: (pages flipping) Have you tried rebooting?
    Hemos: Is that a yes or a no?
    MS Tech: That sounds like a driver problem. You may have to reinstall Windows.
    Hemos: (Hangs up, types "no comment").


    Sega Rep: Hello?
    Hemos: Are you guys going to be making games for the X Box?
    Sega Rep: We make great many games, super good Sonic running bush pig, you buy at store.
    Hemos: Yeah, great, but are you going to be making games for the X Box?
    Sega Rep: YOU BUY AT STORE! (click)
    Hemos: (types "no comment")

    Ok, mod me down, I had my fun.
  • DoA was the first rip released, IIRC. I wouldn't be surprised if there were some problems with that one. I have seen other rips, and I don't remember any issues with them, other than a no textures problem with Crazy Taxi, but I seem to remember there were ways of 'padding' the disc to avoid this.
  • Sega is motivated to license the technology and not lose money on every DC, be it their own or someone else's. Microsoft is motivated to make their product launch successful, and what better way to do that than to have ~100 titles from the outset? The biggest problem for any new console is the lack of games to play on them.

    Sega is the only logical choice for MS anyway -- PS1 games are covered by Bleem!, there isn't a chance in hell that Sony will license PS2, and Nintendo formats are obviously much more expensive to accommodate than GD-ROM.
  • This is an incredibly cool development (especially if Sega develops exclusively for the X-Box, lending legitimacy to the US-made system) but I doubt the Xbox will be compatible with my 4 Dreamcast controllers, 2 arcade sticks, broadband adapter -- though the Xbox is supposed to have a cable modem built in (so was PS2 however) -- and 6 VMUs? Will I have to buy Microsoft stuff? It's not like their controllers suck but Sidewinders are $50 each.

    In other words, Sega, don't liscense the technology: think strategic partnership.

    In other big M: if they don't want a partnership, do them a favor and buy them out.

  • The Dreamcast is the only console I've ever seen running a MS OS and it is the most stable system I've ever used.
  • They'll probably just find a way to make dreamcast bootable dvds, users were able to pirate dc games onto cd-rom, what makes you think sega/microsoft can't do the same?
  • "Sega games would look great on Xbox, but it's absolutely untrue that Xbox will contain Dreamcast hardware," Microsoft's spokesperson told Daily Radar notice the use of the word hardware, keeps a faint hope alive for software emulation. dreamcast does utilize windows ce. If nothing else dc games will be somewhat easy to port to the x-box.

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