Videogame Nostalgia Isn't What It Used To be 88
Thanks to GameSpy for its 'Pixel' column discussing the dangers in letting videogame nostalgia run unchecked, as the author explains: "Number one: Just because it's old, doesn't mean it's particularly good. And number two, loosely based on Sturgeon's Law: 90% of all video games ever made are either mediocre or crap." He gives an example: "Case in point: A little PlayStation game called Gunners Heaven. It was a very early Japanese release by Sony... [and] the American import magazines covered it a bit and described it as a Gunstar Heroes clone", but the game, once acquired, "was thoroughly mediocre", showing "the dangers of unchecked nostalgic anticipation."
Unchecked anticipation (Score:5, Insightful)
True, true... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm a big retro-gamer, but I agree. I love the NES and most of the other systems from that time period, but I admit that many of the games that were made then are for historitcal interest only. (Deadly Towers, anyone?)
However, I still think retro-gaming is important for the industry. Older games, like old movies, should be respected, studied and preserved for future generations.
Re:True, true... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:True, true... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:True, true... (Score:2)
Defender and Frogger remakes (Score:4, Insightful)
Frogger's remake tried to do things a little differently, but there's only so much you can do with a jumping frog.
Re:Defender and Frogger remakes (Score:1)
The best 'in-between' way for re-releasing games would be to include the original with the re-made version ; either by unlocking it, or by typing in a code.
Re:Defender and Frogger remakes (Score:2)
Re:Defender and Frogger remakes (Score:2)
And yet, Defender (and Stargate) are among the arcade games from that era that hold up best today. The classic-era Williams sound effects still have a certain loud, electronic charm. And the action is just blazing, to such an extent that it's good that the original Defender doesn't have "more" to it, as the game rides the
Re:True, true... (Score:1)
Re:True, true... (Score:5, Insightful)
One might argue that it's due to technical reasons, but [scummvm.org] that's [sourceforge.net] no [mame.net] excuse [zsnes.com] is it?
Why do we find ourselves donating our precious time hacking away at emulators and virtual machines when it should be the people who made the games in the first place that should be supporting them? Does the game industry hold their own products in so little regard that it has already decided that future generations can't enjoy them?
Sure, there's the odd overpriced nostalgia pack put out every now and then, but that's just a drop in the ocean.
Re:True, true... (Score:1)
Re:True, true... (Score:2)
If you want to enjoy something older you often have to work for it. Do you think North American/Rockwell/Boeing service the Old P-51s you see at the airshow? Nope?
THink you can get parts for a 32 Ford from your local Ford dealer.
Frankly I think it is great that the emulator writers take the time and make the effort to let us play those old games.
And yes I do play old games all the time. I love C&C and Mame. Thanks guys.
Re:True, true... (Score:1)
Re:True, true... (Score:2)
Ford is actually pretty good but they do stock parts for every car they ever made.
Evolution (Score:1)
Would you pick up something written from the dawn of time? I think at some stage that games will reach the same stage as books (I have a dream...). But even so, there are a lot of bad books written 30 years ago.
Something to think about....
Re:True, true... (Score:3, Informative)
There were no other viable game systems during the glory days of NES. The introduction of the NES marked the end of the classic video game period.
Re:True, true... (Score:2)
Depends what you mean by "viable", I guess... If you mean profitable, there was also the PC Engine, which was quite popular in Japan and profitable for NEC. There was also the Sega Master System/Mark III, though that might be stretching the term "viable", I guess. It was still a major system by a major manufacturer. The Atari 7800 was also released during the reign of the NES, though it's in the same boat as the Master System.
The po
Re:True, true... (Score:2)
As a classic game programmer myself, I'm painfully aware of the 1984 crash, but I was giving the parent the benefit of the doubt.
Re:True, true... (Score:1)
I probably should have made myself more clear... The time period really stretched from the 2600 to the SNES or thereabouts. The NES being the game system I've had most experience with, own the most games for, and it being right in the middle of that time, seemed a logical one to organize that time around.
While it's true that the NES marked the beginning of the "modern" or "neo-classic" time, the true end of the classic era was a year earlier, when the home market for 2600 and ColecoVision crashed. Nintendo
Re:True, true... (Score:2)
In the old days, anyone could write a console game as long as they knew how without having to negotiate with the console maker. I suspect that was part of the reason so many people started writing games for the PC.
Re:True, true... (Score:2)
Deadly Towers wasn't that bad once you figured out how to play it. Neither was Heroes of the Lance, actually (though it was pretty bad even so).
If I was going to pick an example of a truly bad NES game, I'd go with Cheetahmen 2, one of the particularly horrible Acclaim games, or Hydlide. Though maybe Hydlide is one of those
bad call! (Score:3, Funny)
Re:True, true... (Score:2)
My choices for worst, as in unplayable, not enjoyable by any means NES games: Ninja Kid and Chubby Cherub. There are others, however.
Lemmy get this straight... (Score:5, Funny)
Excuse me while I go hit my head against a wall for an hour.
MOD PARENT UP! (Score:1)
Re:Lemmy get this straight... (Score:5, Funny)
When I read your post I wanted to try it again, so I banged my head against the cinderblocks and hurt myself.
I tell you, nostalgia can be a dangerous thing!
Damned wipper snappers (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Damned wipper snappers (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Damned wipper snappers (Score:1)
Re:Damned wipper snappers (Score:1)
I should know, I haven't had mod points in about 4 months.
If it's broke but generating adviews, don't fix it (Score:5, Insightful)
Claiming that nostalgia is somehow to blame for lame knockoffs is as retarded as claiming Richard Simmons is responsible for bombing Iraq (well, maybe he is, that PRICK).
The "90% of everything is crap" rule certainly applies to old games, but we didn't waste our childhoods on the crap games, so we don't get nostalgic about them.
Re:If it's broke but generating adviews, don't fix (Score:4, Funny)
Like slashdot stories (and editors) and gamespy articles. Funny how that works.
Re:If it's broke but generating adviews, don't fix (Score:1)
Re:If it's broke but generating adviews, don't fix (Score:2, Insightful)
So, while the quality of the average game produced back-in-the-day may been the same or lower, the quality of game actually played by gamers was higher. Or so I suspect.
Variance is good for consumers, but bad for marketing executives who
Re:If it's broke but generating adviews, don't fix (Score:2)
Giving old games their due (Score:4, Interesting)
I've been on a bit of a tear myself, playing old games and finding them deficient. First it was Double Dragon on the NES, which I had at one time thought was pretty ok, but now realize is awful. Then there was Prince of Persia (again, NES), which is a neat idea, but way too long. Then Deceptor on the Commodore 64, which I had always wanted to finish. I played through it, beat it, and found that the ending was absolutely terrible. Then Into the Eagle's Nest, another Commodore game, that is really not worth the effort. (As a generous human, however, I'm making a series of maps for it just so other people don't have to suffer.) And then DragonStrike (back on the NES) which turns out to be a terrible version of a classic Commodore 64 game I'd always wanted.
Fortunately, these are all cheap games, so I'm not really out a ton of money, but it is truly disappointing to see how cruddy the past was and I didn't have the sense to realize it.
The above summarizes a couple weeks of posts, but if you care to read the longer versions: Double Dragon [curmudgeongamer.com], Prince of Persia [curmudgeongamer.com], Deceptor [curmudgeongamer.com], Into the Eagle's Nest [curmudgeongamer.com], DragonStrike [curmudgeongamer.com].
Bestest old game ever: (Score:1)
Maybe its just the memory of that distant summer holiday in Spain, the one with the 3 British tourist girls, a swimming pool full of loose coins from the pockets of drunk tourists, a pool nobody but me could dive to the bottom and retrieve, literally, handfuls and handfuls of change from, and the Crazy Climber cabinet, tucked away in the corner away from the noise and madness of those coin-drop machines (and Pacman)
Whatever it is, Crazy Climber still, to this day, sucks me in. I can't
Re:Giving old games their due (Score:2)
And then DragonStrike (back on the NES) which turns out to be a terrible version of a classic Commodore 64 game I'd always wanted.
Yeah, the NES Dragonstrike is really boring and r
Re:Giving old games their due (Score:2)
True, the quality of the experience is highly dependent upon the selection of games. While working my way through a catalog of older games I have found some enjoyable titles. I didn'
Re:Giving old games their due (Score:2)
Re:Giving old games their due (Score:2)
The best part of the article (Score:5, Funny)
"How could it not be worth getting?"
This holds true for more than just video games... (Score:4, Interesting)
Does anyone remember a video game called, I hate to give my age away by bringing this one up, Jane of the jungle? Not the best game but it had some cool quirks, such as if you didn't do anything for a period of time, jane would start to tap her toe waiting for you, if you still did nothing for about a min, she would look at her watch.
It would be nice to see some more interesting things like this happening in games, not that I think they would be better for it, but it would show a level of having fun with the game while creating it.
Sorry about that side track... where was I? Oh yeh, Nostalgic works well for things that were clasic due to some form of non-marketed love by people. The new beetle and the new mini are proof of that, Harleys have stayed basically the same for ever, but what do you think the chances of a nostalgic 80's K-car doing well.
Back to games.
Xaxonn for the coleco was pretty cool as was donkey kong, but you don't see many ripoffs of xaxonn do you? Why is that? Because the genre of 3D that the game was advanced for in it's day has gone well beyond what xaxonn did. Now a 3D FP donkey kong would rock as a nostalgic new game. Super Mario or Mario Cart not withstanding
Tapping toes, etc. (Score:1)
Re:This holds true for more than just video games. (Score:2)
As far as nostalgic remakes, I thought Pong 2000 was a novel idea. The soccer
Re:This holds true for more than just video games. (Score:2)
Really depends on what level you playing at. I bet you a top Street fighter player/ mortal combat player (I don't think they exsist
Re:This holds true for more than just video games. (Score:2)
More recently, I think it's Rayman 3 (on the PS2 at least) where he starts to use his body as a hacky-sack if you dally too long.
Re:This holds true for more than just video games. (Score:2)
Re:This holds true for more than just video games. (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:This holds true for more than just video games. (Score:1)
Then again I played an N64 for the first time in at least 6 years the other day. The whole 3d control system on those things sucks!
modern "ports" (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm thinking Tenebrae, only more so. Gameplay pretty close to the same, although levels might be a bit more complex (since it'd actually be fully 3d) -- but mind-blowing graphics.
Basically, what I'm hoping Doom 3 will be. In fact, Valve has promised to port Half-Life to the Source engine -- hope that gives us a souped-up replay of HL.
In other words, it's the opposite of what people usually mean when they say "videogame nostalgia" -- the original, pixellated version, or a new, pixellated sequil, which is only marketable (maybe) because it runs on a mobile device (Metroid Prime on GBA, say).
Has this been done too much? Would there be a market for it? Would people take offense at a modern FF7 with english voice-acting?
Re:modern "ports" (Score:4, Funny)
Be careful what you wish for, you might have to wait FOREVER!
Re:modern "ports" (Score:2)
It still gets me that something like Duke 3d is considered an "old game" ... :-/
The Quaility Quota (Score:5, Insightful)
I'll agree with this statement. Although I will add that the signal to noise ratio on gamestore shelves has gone down in recent years.
The retro gaming phenomenon is more than just simple nostalgia though. The truth of the matter is, today, a random sample of 20 NES/MS/SNES/MegaDrive games, would probobly fare better than a random sample of 20 PS2/GC/XBox titles. It turns out that just 'having' better graphics, more buttons and more music does not a better game make. A lot of recent titles would not hold a candle to the best of 8/16 bit gaming. But that's to be expected. Dispite whatever era a game is made in, the fact that it's good won't change.
Retro gaming is really picking up recently. Perhaps it's due to the availability of emulators, or a ready supply of old SNES cartridges. However I think it sends out a signal that people aren't very impressed with the current lineup of games out there. If customers are willing to seek out 10/15/20 year old titles in preference to your spanking new one, I think that should get some people thinking. Were these game actually better? What made them so? Are people dissatisfied with games whose primary selling point is a Hollywood atmosphere of better graphics and music?
Games in the 80s and early 90s could offer only poor 2D and pretty awful 3D graphics. Their music was shackled to the limitations of MIDI tunes, and even the controllers offered little enough buttons for control. Without having the cushion of cinematography to fall back on, there really was only one place developers could engage the player. In the gameplay. Add most of them made a fair stab at it. Contrast this with *shudder* Gran Turismo or FIFA, whose sole selling point is graphics and snazz.
There will always be great games that shine out through the layers, but I feel the percentage of such games has decreased, simply due to the fact that there are more games being made. The quota of quaility games does not increase linearly with the amount of developers, alas. I just wonder how this will affect the outlook game players have on the industry and games in general.
I suppose it's like the evolution of cinema really. Initially you needed a danm good story and actors for a play/movie to be successful. Although these still help, and the best movies by definition have these, they are not a requirement for movies to make it big time. So I guess it's the same for games in a way.
Re:The Quaility Quota (Score:1)
That's... not entirely true, I don't think. Just look at the reviews that the NES classic series for the GBA are getting- the only two games that 1up gave 8.0+ reviews to are Super Mario Bros. and Zelda, and SMB only because of its historical significance.
I think that the entire thing with nostalgia is that people tend to remember the good more th
Re:The Quaility Quota (Score:3, Insightful)
Obviously. But what about the best recent titles?
I think that Sturgeon's Law has always been in full effect, past and present, and the only reason there appear to be more good games in the past is that the bad ones have been so well forgotten they're hard to find even with research.
Re:The Quaility Quota (Score:2)
Personally, the era of "classic gaming" is over r
Re:The Quaility Quota (Score:2)
If you agreed with the statement, how do you explain the rest of your post? The statement that "90% of <insert media here> is crap" applies across time. 90% of games has always been crap, and always will be crap (personally, I'd say it's closer to 95%, but it's always been 95% and always will be 95%).
Do
Re:The Quaility Quota (Score:2)
There was A LOT of crap for the nes/snes/ms/megadrive. You might have a tough time proving that.
Gamers today are spoiled (Score:4, Interesting)
A lot of gamers just don't really how good we have things today. As far as gaming goes, the "absolute stinker" is all but obsolete. Sure, you get some complete duds from Valusoft and the like (cf. the somethingawful reviews), but when you buy a game today, you are pretty much assured of decent production values, a reasonable length game, decent graphics and a certain degree of gameplay depth. When we talk about "bad" games these days, we generally have titles like "Enter the Matrix" in mind. Mediocre though these are, they are still, to the dispassionate observer, actually better than any "classic" games of their equivalent genre.
So why does nostalgia still sell games and influence opinions? First of all, I think there's the gradual diminution of the "wow" factor. A lot of people who rave about classic games do so on the basis of happy memories of playing that game during childhood. Back then, games were pretty much a new thing and the "wow" factor could be achieved by a game having more than 8 sprites on screen at the same time, or actually managing to scroll smoothly. The "wow" factor basically seemed to die in the mid-late 90s. Doom was mind-blowing... it drove forward graphics and gameplay far beyond anything we'd seen previously (including in Wolf3d). Quake felt like a bit of a step back in terms of gameplay to most of the non-hardcore crowd, but the engine was fairly jaw-dropping. Quake 2 and the first generation of 3d accelerators were impressive, but already, the impact just wasn't the same. The next "milestone" was Quake 3... well... it did have curves. I think a lot of people go back to try classic games in the mistaken belief that they'll be able to recapture the sense of exhileration they used to get when a game really impressed them. Problem is, it just isn't there any more. Our standards have gone to high.
The second and more depressing reason behind ostentatious nostalgia for classic games is one-upmanship. You see this a lot on slashdot. There's a school of though which goes that if you played a game long before it was "big", you are inherantly superior and have some kind of divine right to look down on those who have only played the sequels. Refuse to play anything more recent than Doom? That clearly makes you superior to people who play the Quake series, but inferior to those who refuse to play anything with colour graphics. I often wonder how many gamers got into the Final Fantasy series with VII or X, and then went back and forced themselves to play through IV or VI, so they could join in when their friends started moaning about how it all went downhill from VII onwards, even though they don't actually agree (not that they would admit this).
Classic games *are* important and need to be preserved. Like the old silent movies, they represent the birth of a new medium. However, it's not as if I'd even consider watching a silent movie every day.
Re:Gamers today are spoiled (Score:3, Insightful)
I've been doing a lot of retro gaming these days.
Re:Gamers today are spoiled (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Gamers today are spoiled (Score:2)
I don't. Many others agree with me. At the end of the day, I just have more fun playing FF2 and 3, Super Mario World, Street fighter 2, etc on emulators than I do new games in the genres on my PS2 or gamecube. They're just better games.
Gaming devs should be damned scared of this development. A substantial amountn of their playerbase, hardcore gamers who have been gaming for 20 years or more are just not interested in their new offerings.
Re:Gamers today are spoiled (Score:2)
I've played Daikatana in Co-op mode. Even if it isn't a complete stinker, it is quite close to one.
First off, you need to download and install a 1.2 patch. At the time, the 40MB download prevented many people from retrieveing it - there was not yet software commonly available that allowed resuming downloads, meaning that you had to have a connection running overnight to finish the download - and remember that we haven't exactly reached 56Kbps at this stage. Once
Re:Gamers today are spoiled (Score:3, Interesting)
if you're making this complaint about super mario sunshine, then you are completely missing the point of the game. the plot is secondary in importance at best. did you play through the original super mario bros. just to finish out the plot?
Re:Gamers today are spoiled (Score:2)
Re:Gamers today are spoiled (Score:3, Insightful)
Excuse me? Are you serious?
I mean yeah, sure, I played the hell out of Street Fighter 2, Mortal Kombat, Samurai Showdown, Fatal Fury, Marvel Vs Capcom, KoF, and all those kinds of games way back when, but for you to seriously claim that Street Fighter 2 and it's old-school clan are anywhere near the quality of Soul Calibur, Tekken, and Virtua Fighter, as straight up fighters, you're deluding yourself.
I mean hey, I don't care
Re:Gamers today are spoiled (Score:2)
Re:Gamers today are spoiled (Score:4, Insightful)
Recently I went back and played some oldies, some of them held up, some of them didn't. Some games just "work" even if they aren't perfect. And that applies to games of any era.
My Opinions:
It's a rare platform game that works well in 3D. Super Mario 64 doesn't, but the Spyro games did.
3D seems to be working better for adventure games.
RPG's and adventure games age better than other games
1 hit and you're dead shooters not fun: Zanac
Shooter with energy meter and similar gameplay, fun: The Guardian Legend.
Free roaming and exploring helps a game it's why Super Metroid has aged so well. (Still my favorite SNES game)
Hack n' Slash dungeon games never grow old and they have found their true audience on the consoles.
Music is an important part of the game experience. Catchy memorable music can make a good game, great.
Analog sticks are a good thing as are 100% remappable controls.
Final Fantasy VII is the best FF overall, pay no attention to those "the older ones are better" fanboys. However VI, IX, and X are right behind it.
Ports of games are not necessarily bad things. The NES version of Might and Magic: Secret of the Inner Sanctum is an excellent game.
Sequels can be better than the originals. I liked Dark Cloud but hit a brick wall in character advancement and the game became tedius. I was having to spend all my money on water, healing foods and repair powder. I was also having to sell weapon upgrade gems to help pay for stuff. The UI also needed work, with some very small and hard to read fonts. Dark Cloud 2 does not have these problems and is simply a much better game. I've actually told people to ignore the first game and just play the second.
UI is VERY important. If a game is hard to read and or too complex for it's own good it is less fun: Saga Frontier or to a lesser extent Final Fantasy XI
There you have it.
Re:Gamers today are spoiled (Score:1)
Try playing back through VII then play through VI. You'll agree. VII was amazing when it was released, but now, well, it just looks ancient and bad and the story isn't any better than any other FF. The can't skip summons are still incredibly annoying as well.
An
Re:Gamers today are spoiled (Score:1)
Re:Gamers today are spoiled (Score:1)
When I play back through 6 it's basically the exact same experience I had when I played it the first time. Everything looks and plays precisely like I expect it to. So, in this sense, 6 has aged better imo.
6 was also the transition game. The f
Re:Gamers today are spoiled (Score:1)
I'd be staggered if you'd actually beaten everything FFX has to offer in 35 hours game time. The Blitzball alone for Wakka's celestial weapon upgrade can't really be done in less than 20 hours, as you have to win a lot of games. My final save time on my second playthrough, on which I did everything up to and including beating pena
Re:Gamers today are spoiled (Score:3, Funny)
Oh yeah? You must have missed this one then... [gamespot.com]
Re:Gamers today are spoiled (Score:2)
And I was sure of what it was before I clicked the link, too.
Re:Gamers today are spoiled (Score:2)
Not inclusing FFXI because, common thats not really a FF RPG. That might be nostalgia talking, but FF7 certainly had more flaws then FF6, and at that level you mark down for flaws not up for features (FF7:bad translation, broken plot due to bad translation, unsatisfying ending, easy beyond belief, lack of any emotional attachment to main character no matter how hard I tried, They killed Aeris, You bastards.)
Re:Gamers today are spoiled (Score:2)
I will not comment on this -- mostly because enough other people will comment on it for me. I'll just say that I really liked Mario 64....
RPG's and adventure games age better than other games
I'm not sure about this. Granted, there are classic RPGs that I'd play even today (Dragon Warrior/Quest 3, for example), but there are those that sucked as well. And they just don't have opportunity for improvement
Wow, its an old game, and yet he didn't like it? (Score:3, Insightful)
Secondly, its not nostalgia if you didn't play it first time round.
Thirdly, do people really expect every old game to be good? I merely hope that the ones that were great still are, and that seems a lot to ask sometimes.
But this game was a PS1 title, under 10 years old. Is that even old enough to be 'retro'? Is it considered irredeemably nostalgic to buy a DVD of SE7EN or Heat now?
Hey hey 16k (Score:3, Interesting)
Is this person serious? (Score:2, Funny)
The truth is (Score:3, Insightful)
Nintey percent of music, books, video games, movies, televison, and at least 90% of web pages are totaly crap.
Frankly I like the reto game movment but I find the emulator old game combo to be much more fun than the new twist on old games.