The Political Games Surrounding Video Games 95
Rayonic writes "We all know the issue surrounding those who want to ban violent games, but a TechCentralStation editorial asks - can playing war games influence your political sensibilities? The media, for instance, are usually very ignorant of what goes on during military maneuvers. But a few days of playing Ghost Recon or America's Army might make you more knowledgeable than the average reporter (or even lawmaker), as the writer argues that 'the spread of military knowledge via wargaming might lead to political changes in the way war is perceived by Americans'."
Sounds familiar... (Score:5, Insightful)
Video games that people play tend to be a product of their leanings, not the other way around. People who like violence will play violent video games, and fantasy nerds (myself included) will play RPGs. In this case, people who play war games probably like strategy and tactics.
Chalk this one up to the media looking for scapegoats and excuses to explain personal behaviours yet again.
Re:Sounds familiar... (Score:3, Insightful)
The only "influence" suggested in the article that actually holds water with me is the following statement "people who have played military videogames
I think you missed the point of the article... (Score:5, Insightful)
The thrust of the article is that political second-guessing of military strategy and reaction would be easily identifiable by such educated gamers. Educated gamers know that sending more troops to Iraq would not necessarily mitigate the dangers of roadside bombs and ambushes -- it'd simply present more targets. Also, they'd be more willing to judge the failure or success of a military engagement on the broader scope, and not just make a gut decision influenced by the most recently reported good or bad news.
I don't know that such education could change a gamer's personal politics but, like any education, it certainly increases the accuracy of their BS detector.
Re:I think you missed the point of the article... (Score:1)
I think you missed my point... (Score:2)
My argument is more against the concept that exposure to material (A) invokes mental adjustment (B). My take is that outside cases of brainwashing, exposure to any sort of media is unlikely to change one's personal beliefs and/or leanings, and that any argument stating otherwise is pretty much baseless on it's face.
Using the violence argument might hav
Re:I think you missed my point... (Score:4, Insightful)
Suppose the son of man with Alzheimer's Disease is strongly against stem cell research. Suppose, then, that by reading a medical journal he learns that stem cell research may lead to a cure for the desease. What is the liklihood that the medical journal has changed his beliefs with regards to stem cell research?
Re:I think you missed my point... (Score:5, Interesting)
I'd agree that exposure to material doesn't invoke a subconscious adjustment (short of brainwashing, subliminal messaging, etc) - but that isn't quite what you said.
The violence argument has always set out to suggest that the behavioral adjustment is subconscious and automatic. The political leaning argument (presented here for the first time that I've read) specifically denotes the necessary step of consciously applying knowledge gained from exposure to material to adjust views and behavior.
The passive/active divide makes them quite distinct imo.
Re:I think you missed my point... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:I think you missed the point of the article... (Score:3, Insightful)
Either that or:
realistic military games actually educate the gamers on what realistic military GAMES are like.
From everything I read and hear, knowing how to actually fight effectively is much less important to a soldier than being able to persist in miserable conditions while witnessing (and occasionally causing) massive destruction. It is more important to be able to withstand seeing piles of charred civilian corpses than it
Re:I think you missed the point of the article... (Score:4, Informative)
No-one suggested these games educate their players on the grotesqueries of war.
It was the author's assumption that military video games provide a reasonable facsimile to actual military endeavors on the tactical levels. The US Armed Forces agrees with that to the tune of repeated lip service and continued funding into game-like tactical training tools, which increasingly find a civilian market.
The games are thereby educating gamers, not to become soliders, but to understand maneuvers, the inevitability of accidents, and the scope of battle beyond typical war reporting.
These games aren't going to prepare people to deal with the emotions of seeing friendly fire or civilian casualties. These games will simply prepare gamers to expect friendly fire and civilian casualties as being an inavoidable byproduct of war, and will allow them to understand how soldiers can make such tragic mistakes in the first place.
The article is talking about wargamers political reactions to actual war reporting here. Not their abilities to personally function during actual war.
Re:I think you missed the point of the article... (Score:2)
Re:I think you missed the point of the article... (Score:1)
Re:I think you missed the point of the article... (Score:2)
Except my point was that strategies are lines and nameless boxes on paper or translucent overlays in a sterile computer graphic environments and as such simple familiarity with them (as through video games or texts) will NOT provoke as visceral a reaction as actually seeing events on the ground.
I'm not saying we should remain ignorant of military strategy, I'm saying that merely being conversant in military strategy wi
Re:I think you missed the point of the article... (Score:2)
So we should reduce the number of targets to zero? I like your thinking!
Excellent post (Score:2)
I think you nailed it at the end there. Playing Civilization makes a person neither a general, nor a historian. But as you say, if a journo spouts a half baked, trendy meme on a topic they know little about (More troops=necessarily better/quicker/safer outcome), the smell of falsehood is readily apparant to anyone who knows better from experiences th
Re:Sounds familiar... (Score:5, Insightful)
The games-leads-to-violence scenario leads us to believe that upon initially watching a violent act we may feel one way but after seeing that act performed many times, we now think it is ok.
So the real difference is more like "Oh, if that's how military operations are performed, I'm not so opposed to them." vs. "It's ok to kill because I see it in that game all the time." Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with changing your mind about a issue becasue you've researched the issue further, but I do wonder how accurate a viewpoint these people would be getting solely by playing video games.
Re:Sounds familiar... (Score:2)
I don't see a direct correlation, no. Being politically biased doesn't mean being violent.
"Chalk this one up to the media looking for scapegoats and excuses to explain personal behaviours yet again."
Actually I'm not sure it's scapegoats so much as it scares people. Most parents have kids that drive the
Re:Sounds familiar... (Score:2)
Doesnt it make you curious to know why the media tries to explain personal behaviour with dubious science?
I'd wager that the media is trying to influence you politically by making assertions that sound plausible, but aren't necessarily true in most cases.
I like puzzle games. What does that tell you about my political leanings? (no I don't wear a tinfoil hat)
Re:Sounds familiar... (Score:1)
Substitute... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Substitute... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Substitute... (Score:3, Insightful)
They are certainly very violent items in books, movies and tv. heck just watch the news in the US if you want violence.
Re:Substitute... (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm not saying that this is true or not, I'm just saying that allowing interaction really changes the dynamic. Think about small kids and how much more they learn if you let them try things, rather then just telling them
Re:Substitute... (Score:2)
I don't think the "interaction" creates much more of a relationship between a person and the medium, generally speaking. It might be more for some people, and less for others. You just cant paint broad strokes like that.
Re:Substitute... (Score:2)
Or do you just have an extremely low level of reading comprehension?
I don't get it (Score:4, Funny)
Re:I don't get it (Score:2)
Re:I don't get it (Score:2)
--Jeremy
Re:I don't get it (Score:2)
Right! (Score:3, Funny)
Most Anticipated San Andreas Quote... (Score:2)
yeah thats great and all.. (Score:2, Funny)
but shouldn't we ask an expert, like matthew broderick?
I sure learn from video games. (Score:5, Interesting)
Joking aside, games can be a source of factual information. Just like any other form of media. And any new information is going to influence your outlook on everything. Assuming you're actually capable of seperating the fact from the fiction, this is a good thing.
--LordPixie
Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori (Score:1, Redundant)
I sometimes wonder if politicians were to play realistic, multiplayer computer games, they'd perhaps get an inkling of what actually goes on in warfare a
Re:I sure learn from video games. (Score:1)
Influence political opinions? Sure (Score:2, Insightful)
Here's what I mean. Many games strive for "realism." Yet the equipment in many games skirts the edge of science-fiction, and the environments are also structured for game en
Interesting (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Article is a troll against Democrats (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Article is a troll against Democrats (Score:2)
Oy, I'm a democrat and I loathe Lieberman and have no idea why Gore chose him as his running mate. Had he chosen Kerry or Edwards maybe the whole election would have been different.
Re:Article is a troll against Democrats (Score:5, Insightful)
Republicans who haven't been hijacked by the religious right wouldn't care what video games you play either. Real republicans are for less government involvments, it's too bad there haven't been any real republicans in my lifetime.
I'm sure congressmen and senators on both sides of the political platform are against violence in videogames. Why? It's a sexy issue to draw women voters to them. "Look we are protecting the CHILDREN!". They should focus their attention on eliminating violence/bullying in schools if they really want to protect children. Do they really think that colombine was cause by doom, or because two kids were teased until they couldn't take it anymore?
Re:Article is a troll against Democrats (Score:2)
They might really think it was a video game's fault - being able to blame an abstract concept, instead of a singular person or couple, is much easier. If a politician blames the *parents of bullies*, he finds himself on dubious ground with his constituents who (potentially) have bully children.
On the other hand, how many congress critters have to worry about a significant portio
Re:Article is a troll against Democrats (Score:3, Interesting)
1)The religious right, aka the holly rollers. They want to tell everyone how to live their lives and believe they have the direct line to god. They're a minority, but they're loud and the party panders to them, since they'd go dem in a second if the democrats would further their religion. Ashcroft is a member of this group.
2)The rich, aka the selfish pricks. These are people with large amounts of money/power
Re:Article is a troll against Democrats (Score:1, Funny)
- Lazy Commie
PS: If you're reading this Michael Moore, I'm your biggest fan!!!
Re:Article is a troll against Democrats (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Article is a troll against Democrats (Score:2)
But also definitely not caused by video games.
That's because (Score:2)
I hope not (Score:2, Funny)
I have experienced this (Score:4, Insightful)
One day, A friend of mine in High School was trying to show-up his knowledge by quizzing me about military armaments. It was fun catching him off guard by answering him correctly and talking about how an F-16 could do an Immelmann while a mig-29 could not.
Anyhow, that's my real-world example of legitimate learning via military video games. Now, if you don't mind, I'm going to return to shooting a guy wearing hoverboots with my BFG10000. Okay, maybe ALL military games aren't realistic
Re:I have experienced this (Score:2)
OffTopic: Cobra isn't much for combat situations. (Score:3, Interesting)
As my USAF father kept telling me, "Airspeed is life".
--LordPixie
Re:OffTopic: Cobra isn't much for combat situation (Score:2, Informative)
It's a highly effective way (at least in the sims) of getting some dude who's in your rear cone off your ass--and in fact, if you time it right, a cobra will essentially reverse your positions in that situation. I.e., you're now on the other guy's tail and in missile-firing position. Even if you can't get behind them, a Cobra puts your engine exhaust facing away from your tail and thereby reduces the chance of a successful IR shot.
Speed i
Re:OffTopic: Cobra isn't much for combat situation (Score:2)
Even if a Cobra maneuver is successful in getting someone off your ass, th
Re:OffTopic: Cobra isn't much for combat situation (Score:1)
Finally, D) why the heck are we discussing this? Last I checked, there were exactly two fighters capable of
Re:OffTopic: Cobra isn't much for combat situation (Score:2)
It is not completely useless. It can be used when an enemyaircraft is tailing you closely. When you activate it, the enemy plane will no longer be able to keep you in its sights and will fly past you - at which point, you have the enemy in your sights.
It is a spec
Re:I have experienced this (Score:1)
Re:I have experienced this (Score:1)
Spend like an hour following NAV points on a mission just to blackout during a dogfight by pulling a high angle at like mach 3.
Good times.
Inaccuracies (Score:1)
1. Missle range is entirely variable, depending on many factors, such as: range to target, launching-aircraft airspeed and altitude, target airspeed and altitude, aspect angle, closure rate, and what evasive maneuvers the target takes after launch. Not to mention IR or radar signature. That's why in modern aircraft, such as the F-16, there is a dynamic launch zone on the HUD that vari
BFV (Score:3, Insightful)
Wargames effect on the American population (Score:4, Insightful)
A few points about this.
1. Games can also spread military disinformation. For example an AK in CS might have bad recoil, but the recoil isn't as bad as an AK in real life. I actually asked a friend in the military about this and he said the only real way to fire an AK accurately is to lay down with it. A far cry (no pun intended) from CS where an AK fires accurately for the first 1 to 2 shots no matter what. Of course, this doesn't make for good CS gameplay so realism is thrown away in the name of gameplay. Which is the way it should be, with the exception of America's Army, video games are ment to be fun first, realistic simulators second (or third, or not all).
2. I think if anything games might desensitize people to war, or make war seem more glamourous. Sure you might play a war game where you storm a hut in Iraq full of insurgance but do you see the innocent people in the background who are hurt or killed? Maybe you work as a sniper, medic, or soldier in the game, but do you ever spend time rebuilding the enemies schools or water supplies? Do you ever face situations like the US soldiers do where most of the time you aren't shooting anything, but anyone can be a terrorist and if shoot the wrong person you don't just 'lose a frag', you might end up in a military court?
War simulators IMO do not simulate the wars of today. They may be accurate portrayals of WWI and WWII where all the soldiers had to do was find and kill the bad guys which was anyone that was part of the "bad" country you are at war with. Wars nowadays almost always involve "nation building" which doesn't translate into fun video games.
War games are just another genre of games. They are fun, but I wouldn't expect them to 'educate' the American public about war any more than I would expect the American public to become better drivers from playing Mario Kart or learn martial arts from playing Mortal Kombat.
Re:Wargames effect on the American population (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm not sure if I could say it changed any of my political beliefs, though. I'm a Libertarian, I support the war in Iraq, and my wife just got out of the Army after nine years. I can say, though, that this game does not glamorize warfare. It's dirty, gritty, ugly, confusing, and unfair. If anything, it gives you a better idea of what soldiers really have to face out there. Of course, nothing can ever truly convey that except for being there, but I short of a holodeck I can't imagine a game doing a better job of it than this.
Still, if you're at all interested in military video games, you absolutely must try Full Spectrum Warrior. If you don't have an XBox, it's supposed to be coming out for the PC soon.
Re:Wargames effect on the American population (Score:2)
Re:Wargames effect on the American population (Score:1)
Do you have to buy it a couple of drinks first?
it's not all FPS (Score:3, Insightful)
Remember Balance of Power [the-underdogs.org]? There's a REAL war game for ya.
Re:it's not all FPS (Score:2)
Of course, as an old-school wargamer, I think of war as being an excercise in maneuvering hundreds of cardboard counters with arcane drawings on them across hex-gridded maps, while preventing your opponent from doing the same.
Which convinced me that you should only engage in war if you have at least an hour available per turn. And feel like arguing about the rules.
Re:it's not all FPS (Score:1)
Hexagons, chits, and dice: the only *real* way to wargame.
-Jeff
Ahhhh tech central (Score:1, Flamebait)
War gaming (Score:1)
I don't see why this is so suprising? (Score:2)
And if you can be informed by passive media, then why not interactive media?
The bigger question still to be discovered.... Is interactive media a good way to impart emotional states upon the user? Can it be as expressive as passive art or does the interactivity "get in the way" and it would've been better just to have done it pa
I'll bite on the conspiracy theory bait.... (Score:1, Interesting)
""Were we right? You can judge for yourself. But I note that all the anti-videogame legislators mentioned in the Wired News story are Democrats. . . ""
seems to be implying that the anti-videogame democrats dislike them, not from some misguided belief that if I play combat sims I'll decide to gather a huge stack of weapons and go on a rampage, but because if I play wargames, I might be able to see through the Great Liberal Media Conspiracy to
Boycott America's Army (Score:1, Troll)
I can understand American Army vs. American Army from beginning to end. That's fine. WTF kind of properganda is that to make the enemy terrorists automatically. Boycott it. That's like making all enemies in Doom III republicans.
Re:Boycott America's Army (Score:2)
Maybe you meant that the enemy shouldn't always be Muslim terrorists (I dunno if that's the case or not, I've never played the game).
Rob (You're probably trolling anyway)
Re:Boycott America's Army (Score:1, Funny)
Re:Boycott America's Army (Score:1)
Re:Boycott America's Army (Score:2)
Why should that be a problem?
The game only states that you are up against generic terrorists. There is no indication that these terrorists belong to any specific country or religion, aside from the fact that they use easily reproducable Russian weaponry (such as an AK-47, SVD Dragunov, and so on.) These terrorists wear what appears to be civilian clothing rather than any turban, scarf or whate
Yeah, it worked for GI Joe! (Score:2)
I could see a "blue army/red army" take on it though. But I have no problem with generic "terrorists" anymore than I had problems playing Cops and Robbers and Cowboys and Indians when I was a kid.
No Save/Restore Game Option? (Score:2, Funny)
WTF kind of planning is that? How can anyone reasonably expect the soldiers to give their personal best when they can't even restore a saved game after getting shot by an enemy soldier? This was definitely a war that was rushed to market. Perhaps we should wait for the first patch to come out before continuing to pursue the war.
zerg (Score:2)
OK, but now read it again with _this_ in mind (Score:2, Informative)
Quoted from this article [washingtonmonthly.com] in Washington Monthly:
Re:OK, but now read it again with _this_ in mind (Score:2)
violates the 1st amendment ? (Score:1)