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Games Entertainment

Getting the Girl 528

Posted by Zonk from the pink-boxes-not-needed dept.
1up.com has a great article up entitled Getting The Girl. Zoe Flower discusses female gaming stereotypes, the role of women in gaming, and the mythical "girl formula" for gaming success. From the article: "Lara Croft continues to personify an ongoing culture clash over gender, sexuality, empowerment, and objectification. It was while standing in my first-ever ladies' room line at E3 2004 as I pondered the Playboy bunnies, the return of Leisure Suit Larry, and the slew of buxom virtual ladies headlining each booth that I questioned whether the industry had evolved at all."
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Getting the Girl

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  • Target Audience (Score:5, Insightful)

    by eln ( 21727 ) on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @03:35PM (#11324391)
    The biggest market for video games are males aged 12-25. Big breasted women helps sell games to this demographic. That is all.

    • Re:Target Audience (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Rei ( 128717 ) on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @03:38PM (#11324437) Homepage
      That doesn't mean that you should only target your largest audience. Women are still a huge market, even if they're not as large as men, just because the gaming industry is so huge.
      • "...largest...huge...large...huge..."

        size matters I guess?

        Some of my best friend/players on line are females.

        Nothing cuter than a girl playing a game seriously. :)
        • "Some of my best friend/players on line are females.

          Nothing cuter than a girl playing a game seriously. :)          "

          I'm hoping you realize that online games and MMORPGs have just as many men posing as women as there are actually women playing. Unless you've met her in person, it may be 'Bob' that you're flirting with. Seriously.

          Personally, as a hetero male, I found it incredibly amusing to play a lesbian female in a MMORPG. The game had lost it's 'replay value' until I decided to play as a lesbian. Too funn

      • Re:Target Audience (Score:3, Interesting)

        by dnoyeb ( 547705 )
        Women are more adaptable in that sense. I can not see a man playing a game with men it it which were designed to be sexually attractive to women. It would be a turn off.

        But I can easily see the reverse.
        • Whether you realize it or not, most games DO have male leads which are designed to be attractive. There are many more Duke Nukems and Gordon Freemans out there with big hulking muscles and/or suave good looks than there are Leisure Suit Larrys. I mean, if you're creating anything artificially, why not make it look good (a la the movie industry)? In fact, when it comes to computers, it's actually magnitudes easier to do it that way.

      • Re:Target Audience (Score:3, Insightful)

        by EpsCylonB ( 307640 )
        Its a catch 22 situation at the moment. Games are made for boys, boys buy games, developers make more games for boys.

        I beg to differ about women being a large market, they are actually a very small market. Lots of women play videogames but how many actually buy them ?. Most women who play videogames only do so because they have access to them through a male in their life (boyfriend, brother, father). How many of these would actually be willing to plonk down the money required for a console and buy game

    • Re:Target Audience (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Big breasted women are used to push everything from cars to toothpaste in the US. is their use to peddle cheap video games a surprise to anyone?
      • Big breasted women are used to push everything from cars to toothpaste in the US.

        That makes for a nice soundbite, but is it true? Can you cite any recent advertising for cars or toothpaste that actually use large breasts as a sales tactic?

    • Re:Target Audience (Score:2, Insightful)

      by JayDoggy ( 200317 )
      Nit picking: Your numbers are close, but off a bit. For Teen to Mature rated games, your target market is males 17-early 30s.

      Newer market research is proving that as the gaming core is aging, the late 20s are a valuable portion of this market.

      -Game developer doing an M-rated game

    • Re:Target Audience (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @03:44PM (#11324587)
      And let's not forget about all of those big hunky male characters in video games like:

      The Doom Guy
      Serious Sam
      Duke Nukem ...

      I've never heard another male video gamer complain `Duke's arms are too muscular!` or `Look at those pecs, they're unnatural!`.

      They're charactures. It's like complaining that cartoon characters don't look like real people.
      • And let's not forget about all of those big hunky male characters in video games like:

        The Doom Guy
        Serious Sam
        Duke Nukem ...

        I've never heard another male video gamer complain `Duke's arms are too muscular!` or `Look at those pecs, they're unnatural!`.

        They're charactures. It's like complaining that cartoon characters don't look like real people.

        Well, actually, they are caricatures of what a man's fantasy man would look/act like. So they are still marketing toward male fantasy there. I don't know that any

        • Re:Target Audience (Score:5, Insightful)

          by Psmylie ( 169236 ) on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @03:58PM (#11324846) Homepage
          If that's true, then isn't having slender-waisted, large breasted women characters also marketing towards a femal fantasy?
          Hmmm...

          • Re:Target Audience (Score:5, Insightful)

            by Marvelicious ( 752980 ) on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @04:04PM (#11324975)
            THANK YOU!

            I'm sick of hearing about how MEN are responsible for the sexual stereotyping. What about Cosmo and all the other mags dedicated to helping women look as much like the sterotype as possibe?

    • Re:Target Audience (Score:2, Insightful)

      by smoothee ( 848660 )
      http://gettiffany.com/ [gettiffany.com] has a very simmilar theme and has much the same demographic EXCEPT there is a huge subculture of WOMEN. This makes up about 30-40% of the people on this game. They say it somehow makes them feel empowered to be part of a "man's world."

      • Re:Target Audience (Score:2, Interesting)

        by Olix ( 812847 )
        Some of my Real Life female friends are gamers. I got really shocked the first time one of them mentioned playing UT2004 online. Then I felt realy guilty. Still can't temp any into coming to a Lan party. I guess hanging around with a load of sweaty Blokes for a weekend is not their cup of tea, for some reason.

    • A Little Older (Score:3, Insightful)

      by lbmouse ( 473316 )
      Everywhere I've read [cnn.com], the average age of video game buyers is 36.
    • I'm sure Stevie Case [wikipedia.org] would agree with you. She says as much in her Playboy interview [eroticnewage.it].

  • buxom virtual ladies (Score:5, Funny)

    by drgonzo59 ( 747139 ) on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @03:38PM (#11324439)
    If having a slew of "buxom virtual ladies" is wrong then I don't want to be right.

  • What about the studly men!? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @03:39PM (#11324475)
    Sometimes women will say to me "Look at those scantily clad women with their tits hanging out on the box! That's sexist!"

    To which I have to say "Do you see any short bald dudes with a big pot belly on any of these boxes either? No, it's all he-man looking dudes busting at the seams with muscles".

    These games aren't any different than music videos or movies. Do you see any ugly people in music videos or movies aimed at 18-25 audience? Of course not. No one attacks the music industry for using half-naked chicks and musclemen with abs-o-steele to get teenagers to watch their videos...
    • No one attacks the music industry for using half-naked chicks and musclemen with abs-o-steele to get teenagers to watch their videos...

      I beg to differ.
    • No, it's all he-man looking dudes busting at the seams with muscles

      So you're saying it's okay to objectify women if we also objectify men?
      • Games, TV, Movies, music, these are all put together as fantasies. As such the characters in them are also fantasy versions of real life. Simply having Lara Croft, the girls from DOA or any other feemale character with large boobs does not mean women are simply being objectified. That is something an individual does.

      • Re:What about the studly men!? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by be-fan ( 61476 ) on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @05:41PM (#11326592)
        Yes. Because, fundementally, objectification is distillation and simplification, something that humans do every day, are programmed to do by instinct, and must do to retain their sanity.

        Do you have a gardener? We have a pretty big lawn, so we had to get a gardener. Our's is pretty good, I'll give you a number if you're interested.

        Notice I didn't say "person who tends your lawn". I said "gardener". Just as I would say, "do you have a lawn mower?". I treated the person as an object, and object whose sole purpose was to care for my lawn. Of course, if I hadn't read into that statement, you'd never have given it a second thought, because it's a completely normal process. There is no malice in it, it's just a matter of reducing the amount of information we have to consider.

        Except for the ones we know most closely, we consider everyone to be objects, various lumps of matter whose lives are inconsequential to us beyond the singular role they play in our own. The fact that we do so in entertainment and advertising is not only not shocking, it is to be expected, and perfectly natural.
    • Sometimes women will say to me "Look at those scantily clad women with their tits hanging out on the box! That's sexist!"

      To which I would say, tell me that while you're ogling shirtless male models at the Abercrombie store...
    • No one attacks the music industry for using half-naked chicks and musclemen with abs-o-steele to get teenagers to watch their videos...

      Are you kidding or are you just fucking stupid?

      Have you heard of this television station called "MTV", which has been the target of complaints by practically every feminist, religious and childrens group since it's inception over 20 years ago for showing too many hypersexed music videos, and there have got to be several hundred news programs which cover the contraversy.

      T

    • Re:What about the studly men!? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by identity0 ( 77976 ) on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @05:56PM (#11326796) Journal
      Jesus, this topic is filled with so many misconceptions of what women find attractive that I feel the need to interject. (disclaimer: I am a guy, but I tend to pay attention to what women want more than to the latest kernel release, unlike most slashdoters)

      You know what videogame character I've heard women I know be attracted to the most? It's goddamn Link, from the Zelda series. Not some steroid-abusing freak from Serious Sam or Duke Nukem, but the cute little dude with elf ears. The Final Fantasy guys are popular with girls, too.

      The muscle-bound tough guy is more of an asperation for guys than an attraction for girls, though girls like that to a certain extent. Girls tend to like the more realistic, cuter guys who have an personality than one-liners about kicking ass.

      Simple question: have you ever seen Arnie or Stallone on the poster for some chick flick? No, it's always some relatively wimpy-looking guy like Cusack or Cruise. So stop pretending that Nukem & pals are trying to attract women - they're clearly not.

      As a side note, Nintendo seems to be doing a much better job of attracting women than other companies. The girls that I knew in high school who played lots of video games always seemed to be talking about Nintendo games like Pokemon, Mario, Donkey Kong, Kirby, etc.
    • > Do you see any short bald dudes with a big pot
      > belly on any of these boxes either? No, it's all
      > he-man looking dudes busting at the seams with muscles

      Be serious. Why would I want to play a "short bald dude" character? It would be a really boring game since he'd probably have a str of 3 or 4 and a measly 15 hp, giving me hours upon hours of "level grind" until I can get his sorry lazy ass sufficiently trained to take on anything bigger than a rat.
    • To which I have to say "Do you see any short bald dudes with a big pot belly on any of these boxes either? No, it's all he-man looking dudes busting at the seams with muscles".

      Doh! [amazon.com]

  • Department... (Score:5, Funny)

    by dylan_- ( 1661 ) on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @03:40PM (#11324485) Homepage
    from the pink-boxes-not-needed dept.
    Hmm...so, either:

    1: "Box" isn't used as a slang term in the USA

    or

    2: Slashdot is even geekier than I thought...or perhaps less geeky...I'm not sure now...
    • Yeah, I'm a little confused about that myself. I live in the US, and that means what I think you think it means to me also... We must both have missed the class on this one.

      -Jesse

    • from the pink-boxes-not-needed dept.

      of course "boxes" means "computers" and not that other kind of box. slashdot is pro-eunuchs after all.

      (the previous post is an attempt at humor)
    • Reminds me of an away message a friend of mine used for a while.

      "I might not have my cherry but I still have the box it came in."

      Never failed to make me crack a smile.

      --HC

  • objectification? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Why is focusing on a woman's body objectification? And not focusing on her mind or her personality? Clearly I don't look at women's bodies as "objects" but as "women's bodies". Oh well. I just treat that as one of those words like "empowerment" that doesn't really mean anything except to indicate how much self-censorship you have to impose around the person who said it.

    For the record I don't like Lara Croft or booth babes or fake tits, but I'm not ashamed to find a woman attractive based on her looks alone

  • How quaint (Score:2, Funny)

    by krog ( 25663 )
    A girl who calls herself "Zoe Flower" is going to lecture us on feminism in video gaming.

    I'll go back to playing nethack now.

  • Sheesh (Score:4, Insightful)

    by stratjakt ( 596332 ) on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @03:42PM (#11324533) Journal
    Give the feminazi shit a rest for awhile.

    If Lara Croft was a fat bull-dyke noone would buy or play the game.

    BTW, before you start crying "sexism", you might want to note that male characters are invariably the 6'4 rugged Dirty-Harry type.

    I've never seen an FPS where you play a myopic, balding, fat kernel hacker.

    Half Life was as non-stereotype a lead character as I've seen, and that's only because Gordon wears glasses.

    • Re:Sheesh (Score:5, Informative)

      by cgranade ( 702534 ) <cgranadeNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @03:44PM (#11324594) Homepage Journal
      RTFA. This article challenges the perception that women are the only ones stereotyped against, as well as that the portrayal of women in games must be inherently anti-feminist. Playboy: Mansion's lead designer is a woman. Moreover, she is pregnant with twins.
      • Being pregnant, female or a pornographer does not necessarily make one a feminist.

      • Playboy: Mansion's lead designer is a woman.

        Nonsequitor.

        Moreover, she is pregnant with twins.

        Unbelievably absurd nonsequitor.
      • Playboy: Mansion's lead designer is a woman. Moreover, she is pregnant with twins.

        That's what you get for indulging in the Sins of the Flesh! She should have listened to the preacher and stayed at home baking cookies.

        Let that be a lesson to you all!

      • Re:Sheesh (Score:3, Informative)

        by brkello ( 642429 )
        hahaha, ok, so much wrong with this. So what if she is a woman...so what if she has twins. Just because she finds it acceptable to portray women that way, doesn't mean that women in general can't object to the way they are depicted. The fact that she is a woman and is pregnant with twins is irrelevant to everything. It's good you RTFA, but C(omprehending)TFA is important too. It's like that skit on the Chapelle Show. He plays a blind black man who is a member of the KKK and a white supremicist. Just
    • Maybe folk will cry sexism when they read redneck comments like "fat bull-dyke."

      And the fact that men in video games are attractive is _not_ the same thing as the objectification of women in video games. The women are not simply attractive, they are highly sexualized. If the male characters were that sexualized the whole thing would look like a cliche gay bar. The crucial point, however, is that the objectification of women by men is a very concrete manifestation of patriarchy -- it is a manifestation o

  • Getting the what? (Score:3, Funny)

    by iamchaos ( 572797 ) on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @03:42PM (#11324542)
    Oh, Girl... Something we know nothing about. :)
    • Yea really. I saw the title of the /. submission and I got all excited thinking it would be about advice on how to get girls to date me, so just this once I decided to click the link and RTFA...

      What a disappointment.

  • Please... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Telastyn ( 206146 ) on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @03:44PM (#11324586)
    Just because there's pornos doesn't mean someone else can't release chick flicks. Similarly, just because Leisure Suit Larry games exist doesn't mean female preferred games like the Sims series haven't been released and done very well.

    Hopefully some publishers/designers will realise that they're excluding potential customers with such tactics like those who now release for Macs as well. But realistically, there will always be a probably large section of the industry [just like the movie industry] which will focus on their core target audience: horny, horny young men.

  • Laura Croft was about giving pubescent boys something to fantasize about.
    • > Lara Croft wasn't about gender clash. Lara Croft was about giving pubescent boys something to fantasize about.

      Right.

      And now that we've hit puberty, we've outgrown Lara. Alyx is so much more teh hawt.

      In the meantime, anyone got pics of Zoe?

  • No posts about video game girls with big boobs because all the slashdotters are drooling over new Mac hardware.

    And, no, I'm not new here.

  • I bet "girl games" would have girls on them too (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @03:46PM (#11324620)
    If you go to the magazine section and see all the silly men's magazines, they have pretty girls on them (occasionally men).

    When you look at the women's trashy magazines, they have pretty girls on them (occasionally men). You know, the ones that tell you how to make your butt smaller, charge your cell phone, run a fortune 500 company, and get that cute guy, all before lunch?
  • It was while standing in my first-ever ladies' room line at E3 2004 as I pondered the Playboy bunnies, the return of Leisure Suit Larry, and the slew of buxom virtual ladies headlining each booth that I questioned whether the industry had evolved at all.

    As a devout Dead or Alive: Ultimate [tecmogames.com] player, I can confidently say that...

    No, no it hasn't. [gamespot.com]
  • You want the female gamer? Fine! Stop shoving corporate sellout Barbie lookalike clans like the FragDolls down their throat and give some real all-girl clans some press once in awhile. You know, the clans where the girls don't look like Playboy Bunnies.
  • I though it would be an actual game about Getting the Girl [newsandentertainment.com]

  • No mention of HL2? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by neolith ( 110650 ) on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @03:48PM (#11324661) Homepage
    I thought Alyx was a pretty well realized female character. Tough, feminine, sexy without being a slutty, smart as hell, and she even possessed a figure without Laura-Croftian... embellishments. I think it says positive things that the top game of the year has a female character that can stand up with the men in the game, and possibly has a future in her own game. I'd *love* to see an Alyx and DOG game, or just Alyx for that matter.

    Sure, you can find stereotypes in trashy games like BloodRayne and various fighters, but there are plenty of male stereotypes to be found over there as well.

  • Why should it evolve? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by raehl ( 609729 ) <raehl311@@@yahoo...com> on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @03:48PM (#11324663) Homepage
    What makes Ms. Flower's opinion about what characters in video games should look like, "more" valid than anyone else's?

    Nothing. Unfortunately, there are many more video game customers who would like their female characters to have cartoonishly large breasts than there are video game customers who would like their female characters to have folds and beards.

    The difference is that guys don't get their panties in a bunch because all of the male video game characters have cartoonishly large muscles.

    Ms. Flower is trying to manufacture a double standard where none exists - male and female characters are treated the same; they're made to look perfect.

    As for video game themes, Ms. Flower is simply outvoted. Our culture uses sex to sell. We sell stuff using attractive people, choosing gender based on audience. Complaining that video game conferences have booth babes is like complaining that there are no fat guys in soap operas.
    • What makes Ms. Flower's opinion about what characters in video games should look like, "more" valid than anyone else's?

      No one has said it's "more" valid. But it is equally valid. Thus you have the choice of either listening to her opinion, or ignoring it.

      You have chosen neither. You have chosen to try to make her opinion invalid in everyone else's mind, simply because it differs from yours.

      The difference is that guys don't get their panties in a bunch because all of the male video game characters ha

    • Re:Why should it evolve? (Score:4, Informative)

      by canfirman ( 697952 ) <pdavi25&yahoo,ca> on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @04:20PM (#11325314)
      Ms. Flower is trying to manufacture a double standard where none exists

      I disagree. There is a double standard: it's ok for men to be objectified because nobody complains, but it's "wrong" for women to be objectified. And it's not limited to gaming. All forms of media (TV, magazines, books, billboards, etc.) have both sexes objectified, but you hear more complaints about scantily-clad women than bare chested men. I wonder if Ms. Flower has read any romance novels or seen any romatic movies and if she's offended by the objectification of the sexes there - especially the "handsome, tall, muscular" man.

      The objectification of the sexes to show the "perfect" model is everywhere. Every sane person knows that it does not represent the population at large.

    • Re:Why should it evolve? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by _Sprocket_ ( 42527 ) on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @05:03PM (#11325998)


      Ms. Flower is trying to manufacture a double standard where none exists - male and female characters are treated the same; they're made to look perfect.

      You've missed a very interesting point - perfect to who? It's not that there is an impossible image. It's that this image is a distorted view from a male standpoint. Or is it? There are a couple interesting, if somewhat subtle, points to consider.

      First is that the author feels that there is a certain degree of misrepresentation to begin with. I'm not saying she's "right" per se - but it's not an unheardof view among female gamers.

      Second, females involved in producing some of these images defend these images and feel that they are actually positive or even well recieved That seems to be the author's point; suprise. Again - no right or wrong... just interesting. Of course, executives involved with Barbie see the product as a role model and there is certainly some disenting opinion on that.

      Finally, you'll note that among the featured female character models was one who wasn't all skimpy outfits and buxom bounce. Yet the model still represented a physical ideal (even as a toned-down example, the character still had physical atributes of a model or actress). It just wasn't the same ideal as all the others.

  • Equal Opportunity (Score:3, Insightful)

    by krgallagher ( 743575 ) on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @03:50PM (#11324703) Homepage
    I don't get it. Laura Croft is a stereo type and Duke Nukem isn't? C'mon people, almost all the male characters in games are steroid pumped jocks. What's worse most of them are blond haired blue eyed Aryan types. Unless you are playing an RPG and playing a barbarian or a dwarf you are playing a buffed character. If you are playing barbarian or dwarf the female is as un-buff as the male. Sounds like equal opportunity to me.
  • Just wait until Duke Nukem Forever for some more female/male steriotypes.
  • Who needs a girlfriend when you can have a $499 iMac? Come on people, let's start to see some proper geek priorities!!

    (Disclaimer: comment is firmly tongue-in-cheek. Turn the damn computer off and go outside once in a while.)

  • Nintendo... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    One thing that I'm really liking about Nintendo is that they seem adamant about acquiring new markets for their products... the DS in particular - many women have taken to the device, loving games like Feel The Magic and the Mario 64 DS minigames... The new method of input is a lot easier for newbie gamers to grasp than, say, an Xbox controller with god knows how many different buttons on it. Instead of relying on the tried and true 12-25 male market, I'm really glad Nintendo has been wanting to branch out
  • it was created for 13 year old boys.

    Also, how can you say there is a line at the womens room for the first time, and in the same breath wonder if the industry has/is changing.
    Clearly, you observations dictate that it is changing.

    Please remember the men respond to visual stimuli much stronger then women, so the 'sexy' woment will be selling products to men in nearly all industries. Whether its a women presenting a new automobile, or a huge breasted digital creation.

    Any toy seller will tell you that differ

    • Also, how can you say there is a line at the womens room for the first time

      Actually, I read this different. The original poster said, "It was while standing in my first-ever ladies' room line..." I took this to mean that this was the poster's first ever ladies' room line, probably indicative of the completion of his surgery. Now that he's post-op and feeling like a real woman, (s)he feels it is his/her duty as a woman to start complaining about women's rights.

    • Any toy seller will tell you that different toys will appeal to different genders. Believe me, Mattell would love to sell barbie to boys.

      It's called "G.I. Joe"

      Coming up with the naame "action figure" was the breakthrough that made this possible (seriously, but you can google the hitlory as well as I can).

      hawk


  • What about Rosella? (Kings Quest IV anyone)

    First female videogame main character?

    The article also doesn't mention Roberta Williams who I seem to remember being pretty instrumental down at Sierra.

  • What a disappointment! (Score:4, Funny)

    by jeffmeden ( 135043 ) on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @03:57PM (#11324837) Homepage Journal
    After reading the title i thought the article would actually be useful to us (the stereotypical /. reader). Turns out its about selling video games to girls, laaaaaame.
  • Oh, God, yet another ponderous article on "Women In Video Games." Doesn't anyone find the use of words like "empowering" and "disenfranchises" the least bit ironic? Doesn't this kind of overanalysis take the fun out of video games? And doesn't ascribing this sort of importance to them lend credence to the arguments of those want to restrict/ban certain titles?

    What's more, the article is embarassing to read. This is little more than a female journalist injecting gender politics into everything she sees.
  • ...the slew of buxom virtual ladies headlining each booth that I questioned whether the industry had evolved at all.

    Well of course the industry has evolved!

    Thanks to the adoption of video game ratings, the "M" rating has greatly increased the "strongly suggestive" content in games, while the "AO" rating has made publishers not worry about releasing outright porn in games.

    If you don't call that an improvement, well, I don't know what you expect. You want your "weeners" tag to go along with "boobies"?
  • it makes perfect sense for women to make advances in terms of equality in salary, freedom from sexual harassment, respect in sports, etc.

    i mean just look at michelle wie [cnn.com] in golf: this chick (yes, chick, not woman- she's 15 yo) is going to break up the male-only PGA... that's wonderful, and it's also real palpable progress: if she can swing a golf club, who cares what her sex is, let her play golf on equal footing, and she will, and she will beat the masters!

    this is the real world, this is real progress

    ho
  • When discussing a topic such as gender profiling, one is forced to resort to flagrant generalizations, so apologies in advance.

    My belief is that there is a small set of games that appeal primarily to males, a large set of games that appeal to both males and females, and again another small set that appeals primarily to females. So far, the vast majority of games have used violent conflict as a central progression indicator. This includes everything from duck hunt to Doom 3. I believe this sort of game fall

  • Women's mag bias (Score:3)

    by gammoth ( 172021 ) on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @04:15PM (#11325188)

    I'd like to remind Ms Flowers that the women's mag industry values wealth over character in potential husbands, and places a premium on physique on playmates for the female's sexual-awakening-years.

    It's the way of biology and thousand's of years of evolution, and a few years' liberation.

  • Booth Babes (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Brandybuck ( 704397 ) on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @04:15PM (#11325195) Homepage Journal
    Do booth babes sell product? I can recall only two sets of booth babes at a LWCE. The first was the BSD Daemon Babe, Cerwin Ercen. She remains popular to this day. But her popularity has more to do with her geekiness, ordinariness, and her obvious play on the booth babe stereotype. Cerwin as a booth babe is clever hack. It's screaming to an unlistening world that you don't have to be a lobotomized and plasticized supermodel from the pages of Playboy to look sexy.

    But at that same expo there was another set of booth babes (and a couple of booth studs for "balance"). They were the epitome of the stereotype. What booth was this? Frankly, I can't remember. These people were so out of place at the convention that even the models looked embarassed.

    They didn't show up at the next show.
  • Then... Don't be a nice guy. I don't mean be a jerk or an a-hole, just don't go out of your way to be nice to a woman. Don't put her up on a pedestal. Don't be anxious to call back (hint: if they really like you a lot, they'll wonder what's going on and call you). I've read a lot of material on what women like and what they don't like - looks help, but true self-confidence is the true attractant. Fellas, I'm no prize in the looks dept, but when I was a 16 yr old pimply virgin, if I went back in time and

  • Double standard? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Jaywalk ( 94910 ) on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @04:23PM (#11325363) Homepage
    Why are so many people getting so bent about the idealized standard of femininity? The men in these games are no more realistic. Look at Duke Nukem [3drealms.com]. Or the characters from Mortal Kombat [mortalkomb...eption.com]. Is the male physique any less well-developed than the female? Why the surprise that fantasy characters are given fantasy proportions?

    If I want to play an overweight computer programmer, I'm not going to buy a game to do it.

  • ... we accept the facts that men like looking at hotties and women like babbling incessantly about nonsense.

  • this shouldn't be a shock but we are animals. i'm sick of people that are surprised by this, i mean, should we all shave our heads and look as androgynous as we can so that we get rid of our differences?

    i'm wondering where this whole idea that if we become as androgynous as possible is being civilized or advanced? sexuality is a part of humanity, like it or not.

  • Evolved? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by el-spectre ( 668104 ) on Tuesday January 11, 2005 @05:37PM (#11326529) Journal
    Men/boys (your main game demographics historically) like to look at attractive women. There is nothing wrong with this, it is a natural response.

    Men do not have to stop acting like men just because a few women (I say "few" because I most women I know are OK with guys looking at girls, as long as it's not overt and rude) take offense. I say, let 'em make games w/beefy guys as the characters, if the female market will bear it.

    Suppressing biological drives is tough... attempting to suppress the most important drive is a futile exercise.

    • Re:Evolved? (Score:3, Informative)

      by SuiteSisterMary ( 123932 )

      Tomb Raider was originally supposed to feature an Indiana Jones type male lead. The main programmer, however, decided that if he was going to spend a year staring at an ass, it might as well be an attractive female ass.

      Hence, Lara Croft.

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