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Businesses The Almighty Buck Entertainment Games

Developers Want Fatter Paychecks 111

Posted by Zonk from the but-you-can-tell-me-'bout-the-birds-and-bees dept.
CodeBuster writes "The programmers, artists, and other creative professions that work in the games industry have taken a rather dim view on paying royalties to Hollywood voice-over actors, according to the article 'Coders Want Fatter Paychecks Too' written by Wired News. From the article: 'The video-game industry's geek workforce has something to say to Hollywood actors: Get in line for your share of the industry's profits.'"
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Developers Want Fatter Paychecks More

Developers Want Fatter Paychecks

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  • Latest News (Score:5, Funny)

    by xilmaril ( 573709 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @06:42PM (#12731423)
    You think that's amazing? I'm in no way associated with the gaming industry, and I want more money too!

    I don't see a story here.

  • On the off-chance that Wil Wheaton reads this (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Dachannien ( 617929 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @06:47PM (#12731441)
    "Yeah -- $275 an hour would be a huge amount if actors did that kind of work several times a week," said [Wil] Wheaton, "but the average, working-class actor is lucky to get four of those jobs a year."

    Dude, if you're unsatisfied with getting $2200 a year for doing eight hours of voice-over work in a year, maybe you need another job. Take some other acting gigs, drive a truck for UPS, learn a trade. Hell, flip burgers if you're that hard up for cash.

    Or, better yet, learn to program, learn to work on sound effects, learn to do 3-D art, learn to do game level design. Then get a real 60-hour-a-week job in the games industry and see how the other half lives. Maybe then you'll realize you should be asking the programmers, artists, etc. to go on strike.

    • It takes 8 years of employment with UPS before you can drive the trucks. Makes you respect the deliverymen a little more, knowing that.
    • Dude, if you're unsatisfied with getting $2200 a year for doing eight hours of voice-over work in a year, maybe you need another job. Take some other acting gigs, drive a truck for UPS, learn a trade. Hell, flip burgers if you're that hard up for cash.

      Funny, that's exactly what most actors do. They don't call it being a "struggling actor" for nothing.

      As for your advice to, "take some other acting gigs" -- you really don't understand how hollywood works do you?
      • Funny, that's exactly what most actors do. They don't call it being a "struggling actor" for nothing.

        Then what's the problem? They can still make their living wage doing grunt work for 30 to 60 hours a week, just like the rest of us. Why should the games industry be forced to subsidize voice actors just because video/computer game voiceover opportunities are scarce?

        In fact, if there's a glut of voice actors compared to the jobs available, then they should be getting paid less, not more. The union is n

    • Dude, if you're unsatisfied with getting $2200 a year for doing eight hours of voice-over work in a year, maybe you need another job. Take some other acting gigs, drive a truck for UPS, learn a trade. Hell, flip burgers if you're that hard up for cash.

      Do you really think that actors only have to do one hour's work for that $275? How about the tens of auditions that actors go to, and fail to get, on their own time and money, just to get that one job? And what about preparation time?

      After you take all t

  • What are they asking for, then? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Makzu ( 868112 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @06:54PM (#12731476)
    Are they asking for simply a larger paycheck? Or are they asking for a royalty-like system in which the extra checks they get depend on the game sales? The article was somewhat light on that point.

    If it were the second one, I think it would be a great idea. If a game is fun and sells well, the coders get an extra bit of green to take home.

    If it's the first one, well then that's OK too. I hope to break into the game industry once I'm done with college, and the more game programmers earn once I reach that point, the better (for me, anyway..)

  • They Deserve It! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Cornflake917 ( 515940 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @07:16PM (#12731583) Homepage
    I took a game development class last semester. I learned that programming games is HARD work. Say you're just doing the AI part of the game. Not only do you have to make enemies act semi-intelligently, and naturally, but you have to do it using only so much CPU and memory. In fact, this is true for just about any aspect of the game. To do be able to do this you have know your programming language like the back of your hand, and be effecient as hell. Killing bugs was a total pain in the ass too. Especially when some of the other coder's on my team created some shitty-ass code.

    That's another thing: people skills. If you can't work well in a team, then forget game development. You have to be in constant communication with the artists and other programmers if you want the game to come together at all.

    I really enjoyed programming for games. But when we had to turn in our game...the game wasn't working the way I wanted it too, and I really stressed out. I got sick the next day...don't know if it's entirely due to the stress but I'm sure it had to do something with it.

    After taking that class, I realized that alot of these developers are incredibly smart and creative. It's easy to judge games when you're just playing them. But after taking that cass, I learned to appreciate what these guys can do.

  • Phatter lewt, lol! (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Omg, I'm like level 60 in C Programming, and level 48 in Java Programming! I finished all the quests, and killed the boss, but this lewt aint phat enough for my twinked items, lol!

    I want phatter lewt!
    • Yeah, but C programming's nerfed. You should put some skill points into getting C++ so you can get into the newer dungeons. The grind to get it up enough can be a pain, but real wiz^H^H^H mage oughta be able to handle it fairly easily.

  • Startup Startup Startup (Score:5, Interesting)

    by blueZhift ( 652272 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @07:27PM (#12731638) Homepage Journal
    Sadly, as others have posted already, most coders can be easily replaced by local or, increasingly, overseas workers. The creative jobs are a bit more secure. But for the ultimate in security (and reward and risk!), start your own company! People in the games industry who really want a piece of the profits are best served by getting their buddies together and forming their own companies. This has been done before, and I think remains one of the best options for those wanting a bigger piece of the profits that come from their hard work. Granted, noncompete clauses and nda issues may need to be resolved, but an entrepreneural path is the surest way to sink or swim based on your own hard work.

    Outside of starting a company, forming a union is the only other alternative. But even with massive overseas outsourcing and a general erosion of wages in the IT industry (at least at the coding level), unionization simply has not been embraced in the tech fields.
    • Not to sound TOO sarcastic, but part of the problem with the game industry right now is that it takes millions of dollars to start a game company.

      Increasingly, this just isn't an option.

      Further, most folks coming from "working" backgrounds have seen the effects of unions on industries like the Automotive industry. The companies simply move production to another country, unions be damned.

      The problems in the game industry would be far better addressed through the creation and use of common assets, such as

  • Seumas is wrong (Score:3, Insightful)

    by mrshowtime ( 562809 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @07:51PM (#12731798)
    I think Seumas has overestimated the number of "code-monkeys" out there that have the talent to make "videogames." Sure an Pakistani programmer could probably make a good spreadsheet/database program, but would he be able to make a good videogame, let alone a commercial videogame? Not it a million years.

    Hollywood is has finally woken up and realized that the videogame industry is almost as big as them, and will surpass them very soon and they want to apply their flawed, old, outdated, business model to the game industry and it simply won't stick.

    So the fuck what if we can't use Wil Wheaton's awesome voice over talent anymore? There are a million and one more talents actors out there that would kill for any opportunity to make a buck and get noticed.

    Patrick Stewart is in the new morrowind game, and that's great, but there are a lot of talented actors out there from the stage and screen who could have filled the same shoes. I am not knocking voice over actors; they truly have talent, but they should not be compensated more than the poor bastards working 60 hour weeks to make the game in the first place.

    In five years I can only assume that this arguement will be moot as games by then will have budgets on the line with movies anyway.
    • There's another problem here. The star system may work for movies, but nobody cares who is doing the voice over work for video games.(This mostly goes for cartoons, as well.) Nobody should put "Starring the voice of Vin Diesel on a video game" and expect it to sell better because of it. In fact... voice acting can be cut out of good video games entirely, and no one will care.

      Don't get me wrong, games that rely heavily on cinemas can be enhanced by good voice acting, but it seriously has nothing to do

    • Hollywood is has finally woken up and realized that the videogame industry is almost as big as them...

      When you ignore DVD and Television, and judge size only by dollars.

      I am not knocking voice over actors; they truly have talent, but they should not be compensated more than the poor bastards working 60 hour weeks to make the game in the first place.

      Go read TFA. Voice actors want standard voice-actor industry rates--and coders want the same residual piece of the pie.

  • Game developers: Form a union already (Score:4, Insightful)

    by HalfFlat ( 121672 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @08:47PM (#12732058)

    If it weren't for this 'we're better than workers who have to form a union' attitude amongst programmers and other technical workers, there'd already be a union for people in the game industry, and this sort of problem would have already been resolved.

    Right now programmers and artists are being exploited in industry. They are working severe overtime without compensation. It is structual, in the sense that those responsible for managing and renumerating these employees know and plan for this unpaid overtime. Any copyright on created art or code is transfered without any particular compensation, for use of the company in perpetuity. People are literally being worked sick, and most receive a relative pittance in return, when compared with the profits of publishers.

    Very occasionally there may be a royalty component offered to employees, but this is often not paid, or comes after the publisher skims off the top and is horribly meagre.

    These people can be abused so easily because there is pride involved. People take pride in their work: they want to be associated with something with quality, that people will enjoy. There is also the belief that working for in the industry is an intrinsically cool thing to do. Employers and publishers then turn around and exploit that pride and belief.

    What is the shame in forming a union? Do you think people started unions because it might be a fun lark on weekends? The current situation will remain until there is a force present to reverse it. And that force isn't about to come from the Tooth Fairy.

    • How exactly do you form a union? Get a bunch of employees together, organize and refuse to work until conditions are met, including the recognition of a union? That works okay when you can't be easily replaced by a bajillion other people who really really want to do the same thing. There's game creation classes in my local community college now. It's grunt work, but they're young and willing to work for lower wages. You already picked up on it when you said that there's an amount of pride there, on the othe

    • Over the years unions have earned a reputation for corruption by being corrupt. Unions insist on pay based only on years of service. Never mind that old Joe never was a good programmer, he has been around longer than me so he gets more. In fact Joe can goof off all day, the union won't allow him to be fired. (they will, but it is very difficult)

      There are labor laws in place that did not exist back when unions started. Conditions are bad in many game development jobs, but they are because workers d

      • The CEO of our company tried to get us to work more hours, we just laughed, and continued to work just over 40/week.

        You got your way as a result of collective action. You already have a de facto union. Thats all trades unionism is. Lucky you, but some people aren't in that position. Some companies run things to deliberately isolate and divide employees so that situation could never happen (c.f. Walmart). The problem arises when the boss hints he's looking to "free up" a dozen or so positions. All it take
    • Probably part of the problem is that unions tend to develop into their own beast, taking from the average worker without returning a whole lot. When working conditions are unfair to the worker, then yes, there's a need for the union, but once the union has solved the problem, it doesn't scale itself back to allow itself to serve the needs of the workers and nothing more. That's because invariably you end up with career officers in the unions (union execs whose sole source of income is union dues and lawsu
    • those responsible for managing and renumerating these employees know and plan for this unpaid overtime.

      The biggest problem with overtime is that it doesn't yield the benefits that employers think it will. Creative employees simply can not work much more than forty hours per week and actually get more done. At least not more quality work. You can do a lot more than usual during a crunch, but you can't already be worn down, and afterwards, you have to recover your stamina with some actual rest.

      A union i
    • there'd already be a union for people in the game industry, and this sort of problem would have already been resolved.

      As long as you care to ignore the other problems the union would cause.

      Right now programmers and artists are being exploited in industry.

      Boohoo. I picture a sign with a starving programmer on it, "Can you spare 10 cents a day to adopt this hungry game developer?"

      They are working severe overtime without compensation.

      Quit and get a new job.

      Any copyright on created art or code is tr

  • The three job classes... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Taulin ( 569009 ) on Sunday June 05, 2005 @10:59PM (#12732750) Homepage Journal
    There are many MANY professions that are overworked and underpaid, but since we are on the subject of programmers, I will concentrate on us. I have worked for many companies, in the US and in Tokyo. Everything breaks down into Employer, Employee and Contractor. Employer gets the profits. Employees get a paycheck. Contractors generally get a bigger paycheck. The farce is that people believe that Employees have better job security than Contractors, but job security doesn't exist anymore. Game companies are Contractors. Almost all are bought out or hired by Employers like EA, who get the profits, and are let go when the job is done. Others that are independent have been going under waiting for the next big contract, or license. Unfortunately, game companies are NOT treated like contractors, and paid like Employees. This is the problem, especially since large groups of people work on the same project, and finish at the same time, versus a 'normal' working job, in which projects are scattered about, ending at different times. Because of all of this, I understand the complaints of game programmers. Even though I would love to work for a game company, I understand they work long hours, and get paid crap, so I choose not to work for one.
    • Considering the money a sucessful consultant brings home, turning contractor is indeed quite tempting.
      An important disadvantage, however, is that you have to be your own marketing department all of the time. This is not easy for everybody, and for me this is the main reason I have not jumped ship yet.
  • Water is wet.
    Fire burns.
    and everyone, everywhere, wants more money.

  • Just do like Hollywood and the record biz. Anybody wants royalties, just give them a percentage of the net profits.

    And pay (out of the gross) your most creative people to do your accounting.

  • Get Out While You Can (Score:3, Insightful)

    by analog_line ( 465182 ) on Monday June 06, 2005 @08:38AM (#12734739)
    If I worked in the game industry, I'd be looking elsewhere really damn fast. There is no reason to believe that Indian or Chinese coders can't write quality game software just as rarely as American, British, or Aussie coders do, and they can produce the buggy, barely playable crap far cheaper.

    Complaining that you want more money is only going to make the slide to outsourcing that much faster. You chose to work in this industry, you knew all the bullshit that game companies do to their employees. The kind of ridiculous hours for comparatively crap pay that you would be forced to do. You knew all of it and you signed on the dotted line because you were blinded by the fantasy of making games being the coolest thing ever. Why in the world should I feel sympathy for you?
  • Only getting 4 jobs a year? Hasnt it occured to you will that there might be reasons for that? Or did you sleep through economics 101.

    Its simply supply and demand. There is way to much supply but the rate charged for the service limits the demand.

    This is union protectionism. The union wont adapt to market forces so instead they want to extrot more money for the companies that can still afford them.

    Unions are good up to a point. That point doesnt include bullying non-union voice actors into a union or ext

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