Bonnie Ruberg is a staff writer for Planet GameCube and Gaming Age, a freelance games journalist, and the author of
Heroine Sheik, a blog dedicated to investigating sexuality in gaming cultures. Today, we have the pleasure of running a piece she's written for the site about a topic that's been brought up more than once in the comments here on Slashdot.
"For Zelda fans, this is a time of anticipation. The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess is officially on its way, and everybody is talking. By now, we've all seen the pre-release screenshots and videos. Nintendo has made some major changes with the series' latest installment, and the gaming world has let out a unanimous gasp at the results." Read on for the rest of her analysis of this oft-debated issue.
By Bonnie Ruberg 
With the stylized aesthetic of Wind Waker all but gone, Nintendo has implemented carefully rendered, highly realistic polygons in its place - perhaps in response to the outcry of fans who disapproved of "kiddy," cel-shaded Link. The game's release date has even been pushed back in part to allow developers more time to perfect the new look. The question of realism versus style is one that has plagued art for centuries, and video games are no exception. Since the 2003 release of Wind Waker, a title both adored and despised, the Zelda series has come to epitomize that debate for the gaming industry, and heated words have been exchanged on both sides. Now, with Twilight Princess on the horizon, the old argument has been rekindled. What better time to take a look back at the issue and ask, once and for all: Is this really just a question of a pretty face?
When The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker came out two years ago, it's cel-shaded graphics caused a big stir in the American gaming community. Since then, debate over the value of the game's stylized aesthetic continues to be a popular topic in online video game forums. While there are some gamers who openly defend the title and its style, it seems the majority of voices express disappointment, even disgust. Many feel that the cel-shading gave Wind Waker a "cartoon-like" or childish look. One fan writes of encountering the new aesthetic for the first time, "I felt as though something had been stolen from me." Other forums-users remark, in comments that mirror thousands by like-minded gamers, "The graphics ruined the game," and "[Wink Waker] destroyed everything Zelda stood for." Now that Nintendo is taking the series back in a more graphically realistic direction, one precedented by the artistic approach in Ocarina of Time, those same disappointed fans are starting to rejoice. "These screens are exactly what i have been waiting for [sic]," writes one forum-user. Another: "All I can say is wow!!! I am so glad the cartoonish Link is gone. That is what kept me away from the whole Zelda franchise."
The press too seems glad to see the return of realism. After playing the demo at E3, Gamespy called the change in graphics an "upgrade," noting that "the overall style is a lot more grownup" and that "the game simply looks more alive." Gaming Age said realism "seals the deal" on the title, which is "by far one of the best looking games Nintendo has ever made," while Gamespot simply refers to "the undeniable appeal of realistic Link." According to Eiji Aunoma, the director of Twilight Princess, the decision to move away from the highly stylized aesthetic of Wind Waker was based partially on fan reaction. It was also dictated in part by the new game's storyline, which follows an older Link and a more serious adventure, and therefore needed a more "adult" graphical style. Still, even this decision to focus the game on a mature hero was affected by criticism from gamers who didn't enjoy playing as younger Link. As Planet GameCube notes, in the end, "The fans asked for a realistic Zelda, and Nintendo is delivering in a big way."
While it's understandable that players would have opinions about the looks of a favorite game, the debate over the aesthetics of Zelda has gone beyond friendly banter. What makes the topic so important that gamers just can't let it go? It's not really all about looks. If Zelda weren't Zelda, no one would make such a big fuss. As it stands, the series has so strong a fan-base, full of so many die-hard followers, that it has come, in a way, to represent video games as a whole, if not the industry itself. This makes the question of realism versus style in Zelda a much larger one than if it were applied to an unpopular, or even moderately well-known game. The issue has been further complicated by Zelda's close association with Nintendo, which struggles constantly with its already "kiddy" image. While the developers of Wind Waker made an artistically bold decision in utilizing cel-shading, their choice may have weakening Nintendo's mainstream image - one which must remain welcoming to adult gamers if the company is to compete against Sony and Microsoft in the current market.
But for the video game community, the question of aesthetics is also a cultural one. Whereas, in the Japanese market, unique style is highly regarded, realism in games is more often an American ideal. This can be seen in the supposedly negative link that critical gamers draw between Wind Waker's cel-shading, officially called "toon-shading" by Nintendo, and cartoons themselves - considered by most Americans to be a juvenile form of entertainment. Yet in Japan, anime and manga (the Japanese equivalents of cartoon shows and comic books) are regarded as legitimate art forms, and though some are designed for children, men and women of all ages enjoy these products, which lack the "kiddy" connotations they hold in the United States. Similarly, the gender expectations that are so rigid in mainstream America are not as clearly defined in Japanese culture. Japanese gamers are less concerned with appearing "masculine," at least in the American sense of reveling in games that flex their graphical muscle. The comments of U. S. gamers, especially those participating in forums, are influenced by the need to protect a certain macho image, one in favor of "grownup" realism instead of "childish" stylization. 
The larger question at hand, however, is perhaps unanswerable: Is the point of gaming to recreate reality, or should it go beyond realism, into the realm of art? Video games confront this issue directly through the use of interactivity. Developers must decide whether to make a gaming experience as realistic as possible, allowing the gamer to step inside the character and his actions, or to keep him at a distance through an unfamiliar visual style. Certain types of games logically benefit from an inclusive aesthetic; racing and fighting titles rely on increasingly robust graphics technology to bring you more believable interactivity. With other categories of games, such as action-adventure, the genre into which the Zelda series falls, the decision isn't so clear. Neither is who makes the call: Should it be the developers/creators/artists themselves, or the game's fanbase, its potential consumers? If gamers demand graphical prowess in a quality game, as their response to both Wind Waker and Twilight Princess implies they do, they also have to face the possibility that all games, if rendered as realistically as possible, may soon look the same - not so much art as playable photographs of the world around them. Then they must ask themselves, honestly, whether or not that's a bad thing.
a vote for realism (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:a vote for realism (Score:2)
Since you seem to be in to action-adventure (Zelda), I don't think you'll be disappoined with MP. Just go into the game knowing that it is NOT a First-Person-Shooter, and you'll be happy. With the way weapons lock on to targets, it is more like Zelda than an FPS.
Zelda & Final Fantasy VII: Realism vs. Reality (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:a vote for realism (Score:3, Insightful)
I think that there is just as much chance of Nintendo porting Zelda as there is of Sony porting Gran Turismo. The console manufacturers want there to be a game related reason for choosing their console. Having every game available for every platform is great for the consumer, but bad for the smaller console manufaturer.
Re:a vote for realism (Score:3, Funny)
A vote for great gameplay either way (Score:5, Insightful)
That said, there was almost nothing in the game that seriously challenged the kids. Despite the (deservedly) legendary depth of play from Zelda titles, I think the designers decided they were making a cartoony title so they should pitch it to kids in terms of the level of challenge too. Which sucked.
We can accept gritty realism or the cel shading thing. Either one has to be stylishly executed, and the game has to be far more than a shooter where I'm opening doors in order to hold my interest.
(Near as we can tell the delay with the new Zelda is the development group adding play depth. Props to them.)
Re: No such thing as real. (Score:2, Insightful)
"realistic" graphics are for shallow people without imagination or those who have some serious insecurity issues (americans are brought up with major insecurities so they consume more.)
I suppose next they will want nintendo to add voice overs to the game because its more realistic than learning to read.
I just hope the new Zelda at least is on par with Windwaker
Re:A vote for great gameplay either way (Score:5, Insightful)
every person over the age of 25 that I've heard comment on the cell shading has been supportive of it. The only people complaining about the style not being sufficiently grown-up are 14 year old morons who have no sense of how not to bitch about things, and no idea of what adult actually means. They want the blood and guts style in an effort to seem macho. they have no concept of game development, art, or the technology. they just know that having a game with a lot of blood will impress their 14 year old friends.
Nintendo should release a cell shaded game where the main character is a persecuted homosexual who has to solve puzzles which refer to classical literature in order to avoid being lynched and attacked by a suspicious homophobic public. The goal is to be able to adopt a child in Missouri. Then, we can see what style is more grown up.
Re:A vote for great gameplay either way (Score:3, Funny)
Re:A vote for great gameplay either way (Score:3, Funny)
Re:A vote for great gameplay either way (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:A vote for great gameplay either way (Score:5, Insightful)
(Wrong "We") (Score:3, Funny)
Re:a vote for realism (Score:4, Interesting)
I've since traded in a bunch of stale PS2 titles and have Mario Party 5, Donkey Konga 2 w/bongo's, Starfox Adventures, Puyo Pop, Mario Sunshine, Metroid Prime, and Luigi's Mansion for a total investment of about $60 including the system.
That's about the cost of just one new title, and I have had more FUN with the GC than I've had with my PS2 in years.
Re:a vote for realism (Score:5, Insightful)
The same thing cheeses me off in FPS games - how players want sniper rifles and nazis and waiting for the next round to restart because respawning is unrealistic... this perspective limits things so damn much. Reality and history has a much shorter list of gameplay and artistic possibilities than your imagination.
I loved the cel-shaded games the moment I saw them. Dreamcast had a laundry-list of awesome titles with cartoon shader graphics.
The problem is that the US game market is full of early teens. These kids are quite possibly the worst possible target market - look at the wasteland of the movie and music industries that cater to them. In games, they're obsessed with things being adult and serious and dramatic, because they're so desperate not to look like kids. In the end, it's a reflection of their music - the games are as emo as they are. Everything has to have an end-of-the-world plotline and serious, dramatic graphics and real-world weaponry.
By the time you realise that what really rocks are games that are fun and unique, you're too old to have the time on your hands to kill playing them.
Which is the more adult person? The one who plays KillZone? Or the one who plays Chu Chu Rocket unabashedly because it's FUN.
Re:a vote for realism (Score:2)
For what it's worth, I'm not sure you could put most GCN games on the PS2 without taking a graphics hit and using a controller that the game wasn't designed for. Have you seen the screen for RE4 on the PS2? They don't look anywhere near as nice as the GCN ones.
Console makers don't port games because it's
Re:a vote for realism (Score:2)
Re:a vote for realism (Score:2)
Re:a vote for realism (Score:2)
Rob
Re:A vote against "realism" (Score:2)
Tradition vs. Evolution (Score:5, Insightful)
Tradition vs. evolution is such a classic set of counterpoints. It pops up in religions, in corporations, in clubs, and it's no wonder it rages now in video games. They now have enough history for tradition to take a foothold. In the long run, though, I doubt that it was the cartoony appearance that really made Zelda players into Zelda fans. It may have been endearing, but it was the gameplay and stories that really made it addictive. IMO, the story, gameplay, and AI quality will be the final arbiters of the fate of this game, not the visual realism or lack thereof.
- Greg
Re:Tradition vs. Evolution (Score:5, Insightful)
For computer animation and video games, audiences are especially critical of mistakes in the depiction of human characters (both appearance and movement), particularly if they attempt to be too "photorealistic". Remember how audiences reacted to the movie "Final Fantasy"? Making characters believable is not simply a function of realistic rendering, but depends deeply on the story and personalities. In the case of Final Fantasy, audiences were too distracted in noticing subtle rendering and animation flaws that they failed to suspend disbelief. If the rendering had been more stylized (like in Japanese anime), viewers may not have focused only on rendering flaws, but on the story and characters. This is what Pixar knows how to do very well, making movies about Toys, Bugs, Cars, etc.
I love the Zelda series, and I love how Nintendo has consistently worked hard at developing storyline and characters, and bringing it all to life with a unique stylized rendering. I simply hope that the new Zelda will not be too "realistic" that players will be distracted by any small flaws in the appearance to appreciate the underlying story.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Tradition vs. Evolution (Score:2, Insightful)
Yes. The filmmakers spent too much time trying to make a photorealistic film that the story and character development was neglected. And in the end, the audience was unfortunately too busy noticing the realistic light reflections on a character's helmet to pay attention to the storyline anyway...
Re:Tradition vs. Evolution (Score:2)
Another interesting phenomenon is that with simple, cartoony characters, the player is much more inclined to identify with the character. The more you add detail to the main character, the more the player sees the character as "someone else"
Other games have generated this effect by simply not showing the main character. EX: Myst, Half-Life. The lack of definition to th
Re:Tradition vs. Evolution (Score:3, Insightful)
"Over the history of animated films, there has developed the concept of "suspension of disbelief" " (emphasis mine)
Willing suspension of disbelief is not specific to animated films, nor did it develop along with them. Willing suspension of disbelief has been around as long as literature has been; for example, Aesop's fables require it for true understanding.
The trick with both realistic graphics and fantastical graphics is to not interrupt the flow. Inconsis
This is called the Uncanny Valley (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Tradition vs. Evolution (Score:2)
I too was in the "yuck" camp when I first saw and eventually played WindWaker... but once I got in the game and quit paying attention to the unusual styles, it turned out to be a fairly decent Zelda. My main real issue with it is the excruciatingly slow pacing until you get the cyclones and the way you are initially forced to go after the first two pearls... I wanted to at least visit the northern wallet fairy early in my gold game.
Re:Tradition vs. Evolution (Score:2)
After that? Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask? Tentative forays into the 3D realm using the highly limited gaming engine of the N64. Not cartoonish either, just common for the time.
Wind Waker? They worked h
Evolution??? (Score:2, Funny)
Tradition maybe, evolution no (Score:2)
Deciding to apply cell shading to Zelda isn't what hurt the franchise, it's the illustrative style they adopted. Nintendo adopted an illustrative style that is, traditionally, associated with childhood. If their art director opted for more universally appealing illustrations, they wouldn't have seen the big backlash.
That being said. The game was quite fun... but too easy in comparison to past Zelda titles.
False dichotomy (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:False dichotomy (Score:5, Funny)
Re:False dichotomy (Score:3, Insightful)
He really just purposely misinterpret what the writer was trying to say.
It's pretty clear that by style the writer was referring to stylized graphics of the game.
Of course a better word might have been chosen, but the fact remains that the writers meaning was clear.
Re:False dichotomy (Score:2)
We do tend to appreciate realism more as it can help with the immersion in certain types of games
I am glad this time around it is realistic as it
Re: (Score:2)
Review completely misses the mark (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Review completely misses the mark (Score:2, Interesting)
Profits... (Score:4, Interesting)
Very general? (Score:4, Interesting)
Gamecube is finally breaking out of its shell (Score:2, Insightful)
With games like Resident Evil 4, and now Twilight Princess, Gamecube appears to be finally trying to break into the 20-something market that Playstation and Xbox have had in a death-grip.
I know I finally wanted to play Zelda again (having stopped at SNES) when I saw the previews for this one.
Re:Gamecube is finally breaking out of its shell (Score:2)
Why are you guys so set on having a more realistic graphic style since you are older? When I want realism, I sit in my cube here at work. When I want fantasy escapism, I play a video game.
-prator
Re:Gamecube is finally breaking out of its shell (Score:5, Insightful)
Ludicrous.
Cell "Shading"? (Score:2, Informative)
Sense you already looked it up ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cel-shaded_animation [wikipedia.org] ) that link was redundant to you. Perhaps some are more lazy.
Basically, cel shading is like commander keen but with more gamma.
I don't get this entire thing. (Score:5, Insightful)
I think the graphics for twilight princess also look totally awesome.
I think I may like the art style of wind waker better.
However, it seems reasonable to me to be able to like more than one thing!
When I see them doing something one way the first time, and another way the second time, and find that some people like the first way and some other people like the second way, my response here isn't to think "huh. we should figure out which way is 'better'." My response is something closer to "yay for variety". Doing it this way means that the people in group one get what they want in the first game, the people in group two get what they want in the second game, and I get exactly what I want in both cases-- because, much as I think both art styles look awesome, I think it could get a little tiresome to look at the same art style all the way through two games in a row, even if it was the one which I preferred (Wind Waker's). I think it's much neater that they are mixing things up, and thus satisfying my sense of artistic ADD.
It's just funny, Nintendo gets frequently accused of making the same game over and over but then on the other hand there's a huge contingent of people on every single game complaining about the things they changed.
Re:I don't get this entire thing. (Score:4, Funny)
Re:I don't get this entire thing. (Score:2)
Cartoon isn't bad.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Zelda was never touted as a "realistic" game, and was instead a fun RPG romp. Splinter Cell and the myriad of FPS games need to have realistic graphics in order to convey a sense of place and time. Zelda was never about being in a real world, it was the land of Hyrule where sticking out your sword in one direction was the name of the game. I'm not saying Zelda can't grow up and take advantage of the new graphics, but why push the game in a more realistic vein?? It's like making the new Street Fighter and using actors for Ken/Ryu. It worked for MK, but SF was about that cartoonish feeling.
Realism is over rated. (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem with realism (Score:5, Insightful)
It is utterly impossible - at this point - to reproduce each and every pattern the brain is looking for. In consequence, realistic graphics often look slightly ghoulish. They aren't what the brain is expecting, so the brain signals that something isn't right. This is actually a part of why Gollum, in the Lord of the Rings movies, was so effective.
In consequence, the games that are labelled "realistic" are often deliberately unrealistic enough that the player can be comfortable. It's also often less demanding on the computer and the programmer.
This is pointless (Score:5, Insightful)
Realism is not currently feasible or necessary (Score:5, Insightful)
So the graphics in Twilight Princess "realistic" and not stylized? Would anyone confuse them with reality?
The fact is, Twilight Princess, which embracing a darker style, is still heavily stylized. I do like the style, but I do not believe it's any better or worse than Wind Waker's style. (Wind Waker's graphics, in my opinion, were absolutely stunning and held a charm perfectly suited to the storyline.)
The problem with "realism" is that it's very difficult to get right. The closer to reality you get, the more grotesque the imperfections seem to the human mind. It's called "The Uncanny Valley," a term coined during the development of human-like robots. People have a much stronger negative reaction to graphics that look almost, but not quite, real than ones that approximate features.
Conclusionary question (Score:4, Insightful)
Realism and art are not opposed; rather, realism is one method of creating art.
IMO, the point of games such as the Zelda franchise is player immersion. Some people can feel immersed without realistic graphics; others have a harder time making the leap.
You want to know why gameplay is dead? (Score:5, Insightful)
There were plenty of things wrong with Wind Waker, but the graphics weren't one of them. They successfully conveyed the mechanics and story. If you're one of the people who didn't by Wind Waker solely because of the graphics, you're part of the problem. How can game makers focus on good gameplay when financially everybody makes graphics king?
Worse, maybe we could have had a few more Zelda games this hardware generation with new plots and content... But instead they had to waste time writing a new engine.
Re:You want to know why gameplay is dead? (Score:5, Insightful)
This is exactly how I feel. I originally was confused by the change in graphics, but understood that Cel shading had some potential after playing JSR for a bit. In the right hands, Cel Shaded games have the potential for an incredible amount of style. Nintendo didn't let me down - they made Wind Waker have one of the most animated worlds ever created for a video game. Often times while watching a roommate play it, I'd confuse it straight up for a cartoon. The animation in the game is just so fluid, and the visuals are dead on for the type of story they are used to convey.
Every time I read or hear someone saying they didn't play Wind Waker because of the 'kiddie' Cel Shaded graphics, I want to slap them. What the hell is kiddie about it? Link is still in there, kicking ass, and looking better than he did in all the rest of the games up to it. Especially now after seeing the screen shots for the new games, I'm annoyed that they switched to a more realistic style.
It seems whenever developers opt to make the game as realistic looking as possible, it ends up looking off and lifeless. Morrowind, Everquest 2, and other games come off as looking good in the screenshots, but seeing the game in motion really breaks the experience for me. The characters and backdrops seem dead and bleak. The Soul Calibur series has been the only one I've seen that doesn't seem to suffer this problem, probably since the character's motion plays such a huge part in the game.
At least it is heartening to see that for Twilight Princess they are keeping some of the stylized aesthetics and tying it in with the dry looking realistic stuff. The trailers had some nice footage of a stylish looking wolf running through a black and white castle, controlled by a character that looked partially remeniscient of a Wind Waker character...
Either way I guess it's good to know that at least it will play as good as any other game in the series, that is, it will be yet another Zelda game.
Re:You want to know why gameplay is dead? (Score:2)
The available types of games seem to have shrunk as well. There are first-person shooters, real-time strategy, resource-management (often combined with RTS), and ma
Faux Debate (Score:2)
You can complain that you like style x over style y, but don't tell people what they should use to tell their stories.
Re:Faux Debate (Score:2)
And a further note, people can express what styles they like or don't like, i just don't think they should compell creators to do what they want, solely cause they like one style over another.
What's the fuss about? (Score:2, Insightful)
This isn't a conflict between realism and anime. It's a choice of ghost in the shell anime over hello kitty.
Style vs. Realisim. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Style vs. Realisim. (Score:2)
Look at the first years. SNES games look a lot better than NES games because the perspective (2-D) remained, but the hardware and comfort level programming improved. This is why GameCube games look better than N64 games. 3-D was new to Nintendo with the N64 (aside from StarFox, I think), and they got it right and polished it up with the Cube.
Whatever sparkly innovation comes next will wow us in the next generation and be perfec
Out of line (Score:2)
This rationalization is just asinine, and is demeaning to both Americans and men. Why is it so hard to accept that the appreciation of different styles (yes, re
Artistic Expression is of utmost importance (Score:4, Insightful)
The article is pretty much right on the money. The realistic look is popular, but I don't think that it should be to the exclusion of other forms of expression and style. Game designers are artists, and they should be able to paint their picture with less concern for what sells and what doesn't. But that's not the enviroment right now, so...
I feel cheated. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:I feel cheated. (Score:4, Funny)
American gamers are insecure (Score:3, Insightful)
It's really sad, because many of the "dark and realistic" games are mediocre, at best, and yet they will become best sellers here because they re-inforce the player's ego as an "adult gamer" who has "adult needs".
I can see the reason and market for making a dark and mature game, but I think the game's "world view" should be what decides that, not a need to make players feel better about themselves. This is a real bummer because I like fun games, and yet they're being driven out of the marketplace by insecure gamers with lots of money to burn. Developers spend so much time making sure the sweat drips off the CG player's face so realistically that gameplay is almost an afterthought. I used to go to a video game store struggling over which game to buy, now I go and say "meh." Once I decide I don't want an FPS or sports game, I'm about ready to walk out of the place.
Gimme Style - the Comic Book reader's view (Score:4, Interesting)
I started reading comics in the late 70's/early 80's, and realism was big then. Artists such as Neal Adams (all over Marvel and DC), John Byrne (X-Men), Jim Layton (Iron Man), etc. had taken over from the 60's stylized art of Kirby, and Ditko (Aparo, Swan, Steranko and others sort of spanned the fence between aping an old style and trying for the new realism).
Then, suddenly, there were stylists that blew my mind: Bill Sinkiewicz' wild line style (Moon Knight, Stray Toasters), Mike Mignola's world-devouring blacks (Corum, Hellboy), Walt Simonson's angular structure (Thor), Howard Chaykin's zip-a-tone (American Flagg!, Black Kiss)... I could go on and on... oh, yeah, Frank Miller too.
But for every thing there is a season: sometimes the realistic style works better: Art Ross' painterly style works well for grand epics. Brent Anderson's realism works for Astro City's interaction with the real world, and sometimes a Jim Lee crisp and clean can be a relief.
But this is gaming we're talking about. Sometimes a 64-pixel sprite makes a fun game. Certainly the original Zelda can't be considered realistic. I thought that games such as Wind Waker and Paper Mario were innovative in their use of graphics, and should be applauded.
But the market does rule this sort of thing. If *everybody* wants realism, that's what will be made. If 10% of the market wants some cool style, well, sometimes, they'll get ridden roughshod over.
Stretching the topic... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's cool to have physics that work like real life but then again, that's not why I play games! I play them so I can see things that can't be done in real life. Remember in Virtua Cop when you shot someone they flipped around like the bullet was 20 times powerful than it should be? That was cool! I loved it when RUSH came out because it let cars drive with semi-realistic physics but they could fly off cliffs and float in the air unrealisticly - but it was awesome and fun! I want the physics to be a little warped. I want characters to be huge compared to normal humans. I want them to be able to do things not possible in real life... I want to see things I've seen in a few games to be extended upon - such as jumping off walls, or small explosions that make characters bounce really far into the distance... I don't know! Just something new and crazy that isn't supposed to happen in our laws of physics!
Style is fine, but certains games... (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:IS IT FUN??? (Score:2)
This is the biggest problem in the gaming industry today. Screenshots of eye-popping graphics might sell games, so developers spend a lot more time on the graphics than they do on gameplay.
realism in Zelda games (Score:2)
I don't care what they try, they will never surpass the level of realism of the original NES Legend of Zelda.
Everyone knows that in REAL LIFE, a young elf like Link is exactly as wide as he is tall, can only move in the four cardinal directions, and goes "beep beep beep beep beep" when he's not feeling well.
Style is not Boolean (Score:2)
Everyone loved the use of heavily stylized graphics in games like Grim Fandango [wikipedia.org] and Parappa the Rapper [wikipedia.org]. These games were also huge critical successes.
When executed well, heavily stylized graphics can make a game far more compelling, and increase its emotional impact. When poor decisions are made, the use of heavily stylized graphics can be an annoying distractio
Framing it as Style vs. Realism is Misleading! (Score:2)
This is a false dichotomy... (Score:2)
There are game designers out there who simply push polygons and pixels in an effort to look realistic for no apparent game benefit, but this doesn't look like the case here.
I don't care about graphics... (Score:2)
Each Zelda game so far felt the same, basically like a set of script-triggers and dungeons hold together by some duct tape. Running through a town in Zelda doesn't feel like running through some town in a fantasy world, but more like running through a town full
Age of character VS Art style (Score:2)
When the main character is a little kid, however, that'll suck the macho out of t
Games are not meant to be real (Score:2)
Re:Games are not meant to be real (Score:2)
Assuredly, the new installment looks darker, but it looks no more "real" to me than Wind Waker did. Nintendo decided to go someplace new with the art style again, and good for them. If it conveys the mood of the game better, so be it.
Cel shading worked for Wind Waker. It looks like dark "realis
Realism vs. Style: the Zelda Debate (Score:2)
Those that apparently cant handle a game that doesnt look like all the others.
and
Those that were able to enjoy a fun game.
People can debate the graphics all they want, it doesnt change the fact that they are missing out on a great game because they feel threatened by bright colors.
Not that important (Score:2)
Ultimately, it's not important what superficial style you use -- cel shading, cartoons, photorealism, 2D sprites, whatever. What does matter is that you get actual artists, with actua
Style is the wrong word (Score:2)
A woman wrote this. (Score:4, Insightful)
What does that have to do with Zelda? (Score:4, Interesting)
The graphics in Wind Walker are brilliant. They're smooth, fast, and technically demanding. They're not trying to emulate Pixar or the latest SIGGRAPH output, but they used the latest technologies in a whole new way. The sylized smoke and simulated cels are just as hard to do right as the painstakingly rendered dirt and grime in Half Life.
These aren't "low quality" in any sense. They're just a more subtle kind of quality than you're used to. Yes, it's "toony", but it's compellingly toony... it's not "toony because it's all we can do", it's "toony because it's hard to do well".
Graphics don't matter. (Score:4, Interesting)
Wind Waker wasn't kiddie because of it's graphics, IMO, but because there wasn't any challenge to it compared to its predecessors. It felt very dumbed down.
I didn't mind the cell-shading at all. To be honest, I don't care WHAT the game looks like, hell, it could have the 16-bit overhead style - just give it some worthy CONTENT.
Games these days focus too much on eye candy, which ultimately ends up taking away from content.
In the end, the success of the new Zelda won't be on how it looks, but whether or not it's an ACTUAL sequel that fits what Zelda really is: tons of dungeons filled with CHALLENGING puzzles that get progressively harder as the game goes on.
Realism vs. Originality, morelike (Score:5, Insightful)
Why? Because the development houses are going for a "realistic" looking game. Oh, sure - the atmosphere in a Half-Life 2 is different from a Halo is different from Doom 3 - but the fact remains that they are trying to make things look like they "really would" if you were in any of those situations.
A rare-ish exception is World of Warcraft. I *like* that it doesn't look real. I *like* that the fantasy world looks, more or less, like a dream. I enjoyed XIII as much for the game as for the aesthetic, and I enjoyed Wind Walkers unreal style as well.
In my opinion, "realistic" graphics often wind up wrecking the concept of suspension of disbelief for me: Doom3 had "realistic" graphics, but the whole damn point of the game was that it was a nightmare scenario - in the "real" world, the undead don't walk around trying to eat you (except in Congress) - so for me, the realism really made it hard to immerse myself in the story. World of Warcraft, however - when I'm there, *anything* can happen exactly because the world doesn't look like the one I am familiar with, and therefore there's no expectation that gets violated when I see something strange.
Personally, I have one hope for games, and that be that eventually the rendering engine come with controls that let the user change the render option. Want Cel shading? Go for it! Want it to look like water colors? Stained glass? Real? Tweak your settings and change it on the fly.
Real is good for some things - sports games, I suppose - but when you're trying to sink into a world that is as unreal as it gets, I think it hurts.
Re:graphics (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:graphics (Score:2)
Re:Typical Nintendo (Score:5, Insightful)
I feel bad that some people are willing to instantly dismiss some of the most fun and creative games because they feel the graphics are too "kiddy." Nintendo's games carry a charm which I think is sorely lacking in the industry today.
Paper Mario, Pikmin, Wind Waker, and other Nintendo franchises are games I think everyone should have the chance to play. They're charming and fun, and somehow manage to be so without featuring multiplayer killing action or large weapons to blow other players up in numerous ways.
Re:Typical Nintendo (Score:2)
Uh, cause they keep succeeding? Where's sega now? Sure you can claim that they've lost their dominant position in the market, but so what? Apple isn't the dominant force in their market and nobody's telling them to grow up.
I've grown more and more fascinated with nintendo with each new system the release. It's clear that they've got a commitment to doing things that are innovative, rather than create programming sweatshops like EA, or other companie
Re:Typical Nintendo (Score:2)
I've said it before and I'll say it again..Nintendo, it's time to grow up.
Nintendo found a profitable niche. It will stay there. Blood and sex aren't what defines a "ma
Re:Typical Nintendo (Score:2)
A game doesn't need blood to be good, and Nintendo has only proven that notion time and time again with their excellent games.
Re:Typical Nintendo (Score:5, Insightful)
In my experience, (this may or may not describe you personally as well) people protesting the loudest about Nintendo's 'baby games' tend to be the ones that equate "mature" to really mean "Full of extreme violence, blood, sex, and/or guns".
Some of us aren't afraid of some bright colors and cuteness if it means there's a great game behind it, which Nintendo titles often are.
The comments in the blog article from hardcore players, complaining about the graphics on the last title, bear this out. The world no longer consists of single platform living rooms, and Nintendo needs to face the facts.
Maybe I missed something, but Wind Waker sold very well, was generally thought of as an excellent game, and many people loved the new graphical style.
Comments from "hardcore players" and forum posters don't always reflect the opinions of the larger player base.
Who cares about Nintendo anymore, seriously? Sure, they have a great handheld market...well except for the dismal sales of the DS and lack of titles. The GBA is still strong right?
Where are you getting that the DS is doing dismally? Got any specific numbers to back that up?
I've said it before and I'll say it again..Nintendo, it's time to grow up.
Grow up? Yes, because the world really needs more of the avalanche of cookie-cutter "mature" titles that Sony and Microsoft have for their systems.
Re:Typical Nintendo (Score:3, Interesting)
Meanwhile, I've got a *very* complex game that I can play with my 4yo daughter who loves brushing the cows while I'm pouring over multiple
Re:Typical Nintendo (Score:3, Insightful)
I just don't think "mature games" are the kinds of games Shigeru Miyamoto wants to make, and frankly I'm not about to tell that man what he should do.
Grow up! (Score:2)
Re:Typical Nintendo (Score:2)
Re:Expectations (Score:2, Insightful)
But when you have a monumental franchise like Zelda, people have their own expectations what the game is going to be like. Meeting those is difficult no matter how you approach it.
Re:woo hoo (Score:2)
Actually, Legend of Zelda (no subtitle) was only on 8-bit Nintendo. Today you can play it on pretty much anything, though, through the magic of emulation.
I've got it on my Palm Pilot.
(By the way, I know what you meant. Mean what you say, though...Legend of Zelda is a pretty awesome game IMHO)
Re:The issue isn't so polar (Score:5, Insightful)
And for people who complain the game was too easy, give me a break. Yes, it was easy. On the other hand, so was every other Zelda game. If you want a really difficuly challenge, you don't play Zelda. Just because something's not really that hard doesn't mean it isn't amazingly fun.