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Preview of Sony vs. Microsoft at E3

Zonk posted more than 8 years ago | from the ready-set-fight dept.

E3 146

kukyfrope writes "After Sony stole the show last year with their dazzling game trailers, will actual hands-on impressions of the PS3 stand up to all the hype, or will Microsoft's second wave of Xbox 360 games (HALO 3 anybody?) show Sony why 360 is not Xbox 1.5." From the article: "While the Xbox 360 is off to a great start, Sony is not stupid. The company knows that the PlayStation brand name is extremely powerful, and that a lot of hardcore and casual gamers are waiting on the PlayStation 3 before deciding on a next generation console. In addition, if you want a cheap Blu-Ray player, the PlayStation 3 will be the only way to go. Stand alone units are looking to run $1500 or more, but it's unlikely the PS3 will release at anything higher than $500."

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146 comments

Given the choice (5, Insightful)

Threni (635302) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716224)

> Given the choice between a $400 Xbox 360 and a $400 PS3 that doubles as a next
> generation DVD player, consumers will flock to the PlayStation 3 in droves.

Surely most of the people hanging on to see the PS3 have already made up their minds. They want a PS3 and will only get the Xbox if the PS3 really disappoints. Presumably Sony are going to make sure that it won't.

Re:Given the choice (1)

Dr. Eggman (932300) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716433)

I agree, if they haven't gotten an Xbox by now I doubt they will.

But I see two exceptions to this (not including your exception):
1. XBox undergoes a Price reduction before or at the same time the PS3 releases. This could sway a few fence sitters.

2. Nintendo's Revolution really wows at E3 and follows through on rumors of being under $300.

Re:Given the choice (2, Informative)

RoadDoggFL (876257) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716665)

2. Nintendo's Revolution really wows at E3 and follows through on rumors of being under $300.
Uhh... rumors of under $300? I've heard (convincing) rumors of $100-$150. Yes, $100-$150 is less than $300, but it's still a more noteworthy claim.

Re:Given the choice (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14717222)

Nintendo's Revolution really wows

AHAHahAHAHaHAHahhhahahHahahaahAHAhAHAHAhHaHahahAHH AHAhaHA

Given^H keeping the choice (2, Insightful)

dpilot (134227) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716524)

But it's in all of our best interests that neither Sony nor Microsoft "WIN" this console war, at least not conclusively. It's better for us that any "win" be press-only, hotly disputed, and that in a few years we repeat this whole argument with the XBox3 and PS4. For that matter, it's best the Nintendo remain a player, too.

Having "a winner" in the conclusive sense, no matter who it is, is the worst option.

Re:Given^H keeping the choice (1)

Threni (635302) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716640)

> But it's in all of our best interests that neither Sony nor Microsoft "WIN" this
> console war, at least not conclusively

I'm not a shareholder in Sony or Microsoft, so I don't care who wins. If it means I get to buy one console and effectively have all the choice I would have had if I owned all the consoles available to me then that seems pretty cool. And if that console was free from the tedious tax and approval requirements of Sony/MS etc then it's good for developers. Perhaps it's time for a Linux console manufactured by multiple companies a la the MSX system of the 1980s?

Re:Given^H keeping the choice (1)

apoc06 (853263) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716785)

yeah, but then youd pay an outrageous fee for games. add to that, whoever produces the console wouldnt have any incentive to ever sell at a loss, and you are talking about your basic gaming pc...

Re:Given^H keeping the choice (1)

Threni (635302) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716856)

> yeah, but then youd pay an outrageous fee for games.

If anyone could produce games for a console without paying the manufacturer of the console for the pleasure, why would that increase the price? Common sense suggests the price would be reduced.

> add to that, whoever
> produces the console wouldnt have any incentive to ever sell at a loss,

Clearly selling at a loss makes little sense if you're not going to make the money back on software sales, but in the scenario I've described they wouldn't be doing that, so they'd have to juggle charging more on the console (to make up for the loss of their cut of software) and charging less (to better compete with PCs).

> and you are talking about your basic gaming pc...

A fixed platform, consisting of graphics card, sound card, cpu, ram etc. PC, console, whatever - same difference.

Re:Given^H keeping the choice (0, Troll)

RoadDoggFL (876257) | more than 8 years ago | (#14717272)

Another PC gamer that doesn't "get" consoles.

Yay.

Re:Given^H keeping the choice (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14717426)

Here's a tip: Quit being a fucking dusche and explain what there is to get.
If its that consoles = stupid poor people, than yeah, we get that.

Re:Given^H keeping the choice (2, Interesting)

dpilot (134227) | more than 8 years ago | (#14717263)

Imagine for a moment that Microsoft WINS, though the situation would no doubt be similar if Sony were to WIN.

Right now, Microsoft is subsidizing the XBox with other revenues, and I don't mean just game sales. If they were unfettered by competition, they'd bring their games division back to at least break-even. They'd be nuts to do anything else. They'd probably also cut development resource to the minimum - just enough to keep competition from forming. (Or they'd cut below that, and restaff once it became apparent that a new competitor was coming on.) Prices would rise, progress would slow. Kind of like the way DOS 3.3 stagnated, back before DRDOS heated things up, again.

Re:Given the choice (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14716782)

Surely most of the people hanging on to see the PS3 have already made up their minds. They want a PS3 and will only get the Xbox if the PS3 really disappoints. Presumably Sony are going to make sure that it won't.

You're assuming everybody is a video-game fanboy who immediately buys one system, which isn't the case. There's plenty of people who don't buy video game systems the day they come off the shelf. That's especially true when the game system is still sold out everywhere you go.

Re:Given the choice (1)

trcooper (18794) | more than 8 years ago | (#14717029)

That's an incorrect assumption. As a current XBox owner, I'm more interested in the XBox 360, but am waiting to see if Sony can really swing me. I'm also still content with my XBox, and not really interested in shelling out $4-500 for a new console today.

So, I am happy to wait, see if Sony can produce a system that I like better than the 360, and watch the price wars begin.

What does Sony need to do to sway me? They have to have an online component that can compete with XBox Live. A hodge-podge some games use this, some use that, type of thing won't cut it. I don't think graphically there will be a significant difference between the two consoles, and Sony hasn't had an exclusive title that has interested me since I've owned an XBox. And when it comes to amounts of evil, I personally don't see a difference.

I think there's a lot of people who are waiting not only to see what Sony will have, but for the prices to drop.

Pricing... (4, Insightful)

softspokenrevolution (644206) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716244)

That has been one of the foremost questions on my mind, how do they rationalize charging $500 for a gaming platform/blue-ray player but $1500 for the stand-alone blue-ray player. I mean, if the job of a cheap console is to recoup the money on games, can't it be the job of a cheap DVD player to recoup money on DVD sales?

Re:Pricing... (2, Interesting)

EMH_Mark3 (305983) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716268)

Unlike with games, DVD Player manufacturers don't get a cut off of the DVD sales.

Re:Pricing... (3, Insightful)

apoc06 (853263) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716506)

well, considering that sony also owns the patent and licensing for blu-ray media, its in their best interest to take a loss on the player to ensure that blu-ray movies catch on. every blu-ray disc made will line sonys pockets just like dvd sales did, since sony had a part to play in dvd tech as well.

one of the major reasons why the xbox and the gamecube did not natively allow for dvd playing capabilities is so that they wouldnt have to pay sony a licensing fee for each xbox or gamecube they manufactured.

Re:Pricing... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14717057)

You're wrong. Toshiba got paid for every DVD sale, not Sony. Sony didn't make it to the market fast enough with an optical media solution for movies, but they had the ability to get drives cheap enough to put it in their console. Remember, DVD was out for 3 years when the PS2 was released - original players were released in 97, and the PS2 came out in 2000. This time around, Sony's releasing their console with the new but unproven drive within months of its stand alone cousins.

Re:Pricing... (1)

apoc06 (853263) | more than 8 years ago | (#14717242)

sony is also part of the consortium that recieves a portion of the licensing fees from the FINALIZED dvd technology. read on...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvd#History [wikipedia.org]

Re:Pricing... (3, Insightful)

szembek (948327) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716290)

This is because of licensing. Any company can make a DVD player, DVD sales don't have to kick back licensing fees to a DVD player manufacturer. However only Sony can make PS2s, and game developers must pay to be able to make a PS2 game. Therefore Sony gains cash-flow from game sales, where DVD manufacturers obviously don't get DVD sales income.

Re:Pricing... (1)

softspokenrevolution (644206) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716399)

Okay, that clears up a lot.

Re:Pricing... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14716692)

Maybe that would make up a $5 or $10 price difference, but a $1000 difference? What you're suggesting just doesn't seem logical.

And DVDs and DVD players do pay license fees.

Re:Pricing... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14716769)

I believe Sony has patent rights on blue-ray so any blue-ray disc manufactured they get a cut. i.e. if they have a cheap player and people buy that player and start buying movies and blu-ray takes off, sony has a new income for the next few years.

Only problem with this approach is banking on movie sales is not the way to make money on a video game machine (it's never worked on software sales and i see this as an even worse business model banking on dvd sales). I'm surprised sony would be taking this approach, Sony has always banked on their consoles getting cheaper to make over time and their profit margin increasing (they manufacturer everything at their own facilities to maximize profits), but to me, either the stand alone player is extremely overpriced or Sony is planning on taking a pretty big hit on their console at launch in hopes to make up for it over time.

I know myself as a consumer, if i see a $1200 blue-ray dvd player and a $400 XBox 360 and a $500 PS3 side by side I'm gunna be thinkin, alright if the PS3 can do everything that this stand alone player can do and everything the xbox 360 can do ($1700 worth of stuff) and the PS3 is only 30% of that cost... something doesn't add up... what's wrong with the PS3?

I get the feeling Sony is taking the same approach on their PS3 as their PSP. PSP movies are their bigger push over games. Only problem is I don't know anyone that buys PSP movies. I don't know anyone pleased with their PSPs and if the PS3 goes down the same approach, are we going to see Sony pusing blue-ray movies as 'software' for their PS3 instead of pushing the games?

Sony should be a little more worried about having a similiar launch as the 360. If next Xmas, parents/consumers/xmas shoppers can't find that ps3 since it just launched, they'll end up buying a 360 Halo 3 bundle at a cheaper price than todays 360 since those will be in high supply having been manufactured for a year...

Re:Pricing... (1)

miller701 (525024) | more than 8 years ago | (#14717470)

DVDs don't cost the $50 that most games seem to cost.

Nintendo? (2, Insightful)

Shadow Wrought (586631) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716247)

Wasn't it at E3 last year that Nintendo dropped the bombshell that is their controllers? I wonder if they something upt heir sleeves again to take some of the spotlight away from Sony and M$...

Tokyo Game Show (2, Informative)

Omega697 (586982) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716371)

Nope. That was the Tokyo Game Show.

Re:Nintendo? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14716376)

All Nintendo revealed at E3 last year was the size and appearance of the Revolution. They didn't release the controller details until the Tokyo Game Show IIRC.

Re:Nintendo? (4, Insightful)

dividedsky319 (907852) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716393)

I wonder if they something upt heir sleeves again to take some of the spotlight away from Sony and M$...

Well, they haven't shown any actual Revolution games yet... so I'd be willing to bet that's their main strategy, reveal Revolution games at E3. And have a release date.

Nintendo announced their controllers at the Tokyo Game Show in Sept '05. It was a fairly closed door affair, not shown to the public.

I expect Nintendo to have the Revolution fully functional and usable by the public at E3. They stole the show at TGS just by their announcement, lets see if they can do the same at E3 when they actually show some games. The public being able to get their hands on a Revolution controller will be a pretty big deal.

Re:Nintendo? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14717254)

shitendo's strategy this year is going to be grabbing for their ankles because Microsoft is about to FUCK them in a big way.

In a couple of years shitendo will be just a distant and repressed memory for you fucking fanboys.

And you sony fanboys better shut the fuck up, you fucks are next!

Re:Nintendo? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14717579)

ror u funny!

Well.. (5, Funny)

darkmonkeh (953919) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716252)

Sony is not stupid

I beg to differ.

SP! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14716254)

Second post!

lol internet (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14716274)

"While the Xbox 360 is off to a great start...

Ha!

Re:lol internet (2, Insightful)

theJML (911853) | more than 8 years ago | (#14717043)

Ahh! Sarcasm at it's finest!

Seriously though, I hope we see something from all the major players at E3. Not only new games and ideas to make the 360 actually worth the price of admission, but something from Sony and Nintendo to show that they aren't going down without a fight. I think if Sony is smart, we'll have some playable demos of the PS3 as well as maybe an announcement of some games that are planned for the system in the future. I am really interested in seeing what they're going to do with not only the power of the PS3, but the space of the Blu-Ray medium.

As far as Nintendo, I think it's time they shift into high gear and do the same thing instead of just pulling a controller or a random system photo out. I know all the Nintendo Fan-boys/Fan-girls are drooling over the controller, but I don't think the controller is that cool unless there is a kickass system and games to go along with it.

Can't wait to see what Sony has up its sleeves (1, Troll)

MrPeavs (890124) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716284)

I am interested in what Sony will release about the PS3. I think a lot of PS fans are in for a big surprise. Sony is known for talking big and not delievering, Emotion engine anyone?

While I don't see it happening, it would be funny if they release more than one version, just like the Xbox 360. Are we going to see a crippled PS3 unit in terms of blu-ray, one that can only play games but not movies. To play movies, that will add on extra money.

With Sony's hype train show at E3, just trailers of games that they were toting as what "in game will look like". Is that what this years E3 is going to be like with Sony, just more smoke being blown up our ass? Or is Sony actually going to have something to show for.

I think it is rather interesting with the role reversals this time around. Last gen, Xbox was the late comer, but because of that was more powerful. You had the fanboys talking about powerful it was and how much better the graphics were. Sony fanboys saying more powerful doesn't mean better. Now, the PS3 is the late comer, most likely being the more powerful system. I can just see it now, the Sony fanboys saying the PS3 is more powerful and better graphics, the very same thing they hypocritically defended last generation. Oh, the fun of watching the fanboys, it always gives me a chuckle.

Re:Can't wait to see what Sony has up its sleeves (1)

LightningBolt! (664763) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716377)

Sony is known for talking big and not delievering, Emotion engine anyone?

"Emotion engine" is their name for the core CPU in the PS2. They've delivered about 100 million of them so far.

Re:Can't wait to see what Sony has up its sleeves (1, Flamebait)

MrPeavs (890124) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716429)

Maybe you were living under a rock or something. Sony toted the Emotions Engine as the next greatest thing. Talked it up, saying it could do things that I have yet to see. They also said it was so powerful, that they would be releasing graphic workstations to compete with SGI and Sun.

Where are these graphic workstations based on the emotion engine? Oh, that is right, there are none because Sony talked big and couldn't deliever on their claims.

Re:Can't wait to see what Sony has up its sleeves (2, Insightful)

LightningBolt! (664763) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716743)

Maybe you were living under a rock or something.
No, I was developing games at the time.

Sony toted the Emotions Engine as the next greatest thing.
Pretty standard marketing stuff.

Talked it up, saying it could do things that I have yet to see.
Such as? Before the PS2, I'd never seen anything quite as nice as SSX.

They also said it was so powerful, that they would be releasing graphic workstations to compete with SGI and Sun.
Maybe you've been living under a rock, but the specialty graphics workstation market has essentially disappeared, devoured by commodity PCs and graphics cards.

Where are these graphic workstations based on the emotion engine? Oh, that is right, there are none because Sony talked big and couldn't deliever on their claims.
My guess is that they saw no business case for manufacturing graphics workstations.

Re:Can't wait to see what Sony has up its sleeves (1)

drewmca (611245) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716799)

The original poster was right. The hype around the Emotion Engine was spectacular even by Sony's marketing standards. Something about being able to convey emotions it was so painfully realistic. It wasn't as powerful as promised. The point isn't that it wasn't a successful chip by sales numbers, but rather that it was no where near worthy of the hype generated around it. Similar hype is being generated for the Cell chip, now.

Re:Can't wait to see what Sony has up its sleeves (1)

apoc06 (853263) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716960)

youre right. this time is a bit different though. ibm has already started manufacturing servers and other tech using the cell. this one is catching on. like it or not, processors are going to evolve in this direction eventually anyways, so why not?

i disagree with you. the emotion engine is just as powerful as promised. the problem is they relied on the emotion engine to do it all. just cant happen. it does a decent enough job given the proper development team, but since the ps2 didnt have a dedicated GPU, the emotion engine was taxed with handling the graphics, ai, collision detection, and whatever else the programmers needed. luckily i think the ps2 had a dedicated sound processor... i think that was the only thing not handled by the emotion engine.

sony mustve noticed the error in their ways, because they went to nvidia to get the rsx to offload most of the graphics processing. if you look at early specs of the ps3, it was as if sony originally wanted to have the cell do the graphics too. obviously it could, since most of the demos we have seen that are actually "running on the ps3" are only using the cell to process the graphics. luckily we dont have to rely on it solely. this frees up the cell to handle more.

Re:Can't wait to see what Sony has up its sleeves (1)

MrPeavs (890124) | more than 8 years ago | (#14717377)

The thing I find funny about the cell, is that Toshiba is in on it. They are sharing a technology on one end, but fighting a bitter battle on the other. It is too bad they couldn't make a unified HD movie format. The cell is interesting and has potential, it will be interesting to see how it pans out down the road.

i disagree with you. the emotion engine is just as powerful as promised. the problem is they relied on the emotion engine to do it all. just cant happen. it does a decent enough job given the proper development team, but since the ps2 didnt have a dedicated GPU, the emotion engine was taxed with handling the graphics, ai, collision detection, and whatever else the programmers needed. luckily i think the ps2 had a dedicated sound processor... i think that was the only thing not handled by the emotion engine.

That isn't my problem now is it? They claimed the emotions engine was all that, like another posted said, that it could do emotional expression that would wow us. It hasn't done that, not even close. They even made hints towards it being able to render a Toy Story like movie in real time, again, no go.

Like I said, the emotion engine chip was suppose to be so powerful, that Sony stated they would be making a graphic workstating to compete with others. Well, isn't think the time and place for Sony to do this, but fix the short comings that you brought up. Have a GPU to help take the load off and all that. Still, no graphic workstation from Sony. It is not like the graphic workstation market is the most stable right now, SGI is hurting pretty bad and Sun is just there. This leads me to believe just more standard Sony marketing BS.

Re:Can't wait to see what Sony has up its sleeves (1)

apoc06 (853263) | more than 8 years ago | (#14717615)

yeah, honestly i think they should just drop the hd-dvd deal altogether and rename blu-ray as hd-dvd. blu-ray /is/ the superior format. more costly, but superior... it has all of hd-dvds touted features, and then it has its own strengths [protective coating, size capacity etc...]

sony never made the toy story comparision. microsoft made that claim about the first xbox. to this day everyone still claims it was sony. eleventh paragraph: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&c2 coff=1&q=news.com+toy+story+bill+gates+xbox&btnG=S earch [google.com]

all sony said was that the emotion engine could create realistic characters and convey emotions. ffx was pretty close [not quite, but close anyways]. oh, and they said it could create a bathtub full of ducks. lol.

Re:Can't wait to see what Sony has up its sleeves (1)

apoc06 (853263) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716736)

well i think sony fans meant that better graphics dont mean much if the game is boring or blah, or if we've already played a superior version on our pc a year prior.

due to the legion of third party developers, sony has the most good games available to people interested in most genres, except for maybe first person shooters. [thats why most console FPS players tend to favor the xbox] sony is keeping with tradition and moving ahead with that same legion.

so this time sony will be late [not that late though, thanks to the x360 shortages], but they will presumably have the more powerful box, the better graphics capabilities, and the most games to appeal to the most people. to top it all off, they are also bringing forth one of the first cheap blu-ray players for the HD crowd and early adopters to marvel over. unless they do something stupid with the price, or the tech falls flat, i dont see how sony would lose this round either.

eventually, sony learns from its mistakes believe it or not, so for those naysayers expecting another rootkit fiasco, or the next minidisc... youll just have to wait and see...

Re:Can't wait to see what Sony has up its sleeves (1)

Newander (255463) | more than 8 years ago | (#14717465)

We've already got the next minidisk. It's called UMD.

Re:Can't wait to see what Sony has up its sleeves (1)

apoc06 (853263) | more than 8 years ago | (#14717534)

theres a couple million psp owners that may say differently. hell, the movies are selling as well if not better than the games last i checked.

ever notice how very few complain about nintendos' proprietary formats? the revolution is going to be their first "open standard" system.

Re:Can't wait to see what Sony has up its sleeves (1)

yanos (633109) | more than 8 years ago | (#14717154)

The big problem I see with sony for the next couple months is that ALL the attention is going to the PS3, leaving the PSP on the backseat. The current state of affair with this machine isn't pretty. There is barely any games and most of them are just half decent ports of PS1/2. There is an absolute lack of original title on that platform and despite UMDs doing better than expected I dont see that as a way to gain market share. People who buys a portable gaming machine expect to play games on it. They MUST make a big annoncement VERY SOON if they don't want it to go the way of the gamegear.

There's more than two dogs in this hunt (4, Informative)

rAiNsT0rm (877553) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716342)

I wouldn't be so quick to say that E3 2006 will be a SONY Vs. MS battle only. More like a royal rumble. New information has come out to show that Zelda: Twilight Princess may be carrying a dual edged sword... litteraly.

I covered this today in the article: A Plan Emerges [revolutioninsider.info] Nintendo may have the biggest ace up their sleeve of any console launch in history. Zelda may just be a final swan song for the Gamecube and a launch title of sorts for the Revolution... as well as a little of both! Fairly substantiated talk has surfaced showing the release date for Twilight Princess may also be pushed to November '06 and that it may feature the ability to control the action on the GC with the Revolution controller.

We know the Revolution controller can work with the GC from the demo's in New York with Metroid Prime 2 on a GC. Even if not on the GC, the fact that the Revolution can play GC titles means it could grow new abilities by playing it on the Revolution. Either way this is an artful marketing move, and may prove to be the show stealer in May.

No, not literally. (2, Funny)

Omega697 (586982) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716406)

New information has come out to show that Zelda: Twilight Princess may be carrying a dual edged sword... litteraly.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Re:No, not literally. (1)

rAiNsT0rm (877553) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716937)

Thank you friendly grammer nazi. I would be more upset with my horrible mangling of the spelling than the common misuse of the word. I think most folks understand the word and usage to convey my intended meaning. I have taken the poke with the pointy stick, and accepted it. Actually I kinda liked it, can I have another?

Re:No, not literally. (1)

Omega697 (586982) | more than 8 years ago | (#14717205)

For most words, I really wouldn't mind. I understand that there are accepted ways to interpret things. However, for a word that means "Don't interpret this the accepted way, but rather exactly as it is written," I must protest.

Re:No, not literally. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14717478)

So literally doesn't mean literally literally? Oh, the horror :D

Re:There's more than two dogs in this hunt (1)

dividedsky319 (907852) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716439)

Twilight Princess may also be pushed to November '06 and that it may feature the ability to control the action on the GC with the Revolution controller. I've been wondering this as well... not only to work with the new controller, but have enhanced graphics. We all know that computer games have adjustable video settings... why wouldn't console games be able to as well? The game could detect which system it's in, Gamecube or Revolution... then choose its graphics settings accordingly.

Re:There's more than two dogs in this hunt (3, Informative)

rAiNsT0rm (877553) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716891)

Most likely there will be graphic upgrades when played in the revolution. The truth is that the GC's graphics chip was insanely powerful (8 layers of texture per poly), but the system was not and it was never really utilized. With the Revolution's GPU based on the GC's you can be sure any graphic updates would be very simple and natural to implement.

I could not see any reason it would *not* offer graphical upgrades when played in the Revolution. This is a big move, and if my predictions and piecing of this puzzle are correct... could be a show stopper.

PS3 & HDCP (3, Interesting)

jbeaupre (752124) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716410)

For a lot of folks, myself included, HDCP will negate the Blu-Ray. If you get downgraded content for not having the correct cables and TV, what's the point? Sure, next time I buy an HDTV it'll have more than component input. But by the time that happens players will be cheap and people will be looking forward to the PS4.

Re:PS3 & HDCP (1)

conigs (866121) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716504)

While I fully agree about Blu-Ray and HDCP, it was my understanding that HD-DVD will also make use of HDCP [wikipedia.org] (under 'Uses').

Of course, I was also under the impression that not necessarily all HD discs will make use of this protection.

Re:PS3 & HDCP (1)

MrPeavs (890124) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716538)

With Blu-ray, not sure about HD-DVD. The copy protection, using HDCP, is left up to the studio. It is just like CSS with DVDs.

We won't be seeing any major releases without it. Only small time operations, that either don't have the time/money or don't know how to do it, will really only be the ones with out it.

Re:PS3 & HDCP (1)

drasfr (219085) | more than 8 years ago | (#14717672)

Then.... I have a general question... like I have, and I am sure a lot of people have, I have a 'modded' dvd player. It removes the macrovision signal and other goodies... Why can't we have some modded blueray players? Or HD-DVD players in the future?

Re:PS3 & HDCP (1)

MrPeavs (890124) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716517)

The studios really need a reality check. They are the reason why we are seeing all this DRM bullcrap. They are making piracy out to be way bigger than it really is. I wish they didn't have as much power as they did.

I am not happy that by being an early HDTV adopter, I am being screwed, left high and dry because of this HDCP and DRM crap.

Sure, I will be getting a new HDTV in about a year or so, but what about people that can't afford to get a new one. They are really limiting their market. If they want HD movies to catch on, don't limit the output. They are not going to impress anyone or make them willing to spend $500+ on a player only to see the movie in 480p, something they can do now with current DVDs.

Re:PS3 & HDCP - do I have to buy HDTV now? (1)

WillAffleckUW (858324) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716613)

For a lot of folks, myself included, HDCP will negate the Blu-Ray. If you get downgraded content for not having the correct cables and TV, what's the point? Sure, next time I buy an HDTV it'll have more than component input. But by the time that happens players will be cheap and people will be looking forward to the PS4.

This is a US problem only. HDTV has been out in Japan and Europe since the last century.

But, in a related question, is it likely that the PS3 release will coincide closely enough with the mandatory HDTV requirements in the US that it will be "blamed" for the sudden upsurge of HDTV sales?

No, you're wrong (1)

flyinwhitey (928430) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716749)

"This is a US problem only. HDTV has been out in Japan and Europe since the last century."

That's wrong, from wikipedia

"On January 19, 2005, the European Industry Association for Information Systems (EICTA) announced that HDCP is a required component of the European "HD ready" Label."

Re:No, you're wrong but what am I? (1)

WillAffleckUW (858324) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716779)

HDTV

not

HDCP

Sorry, but both the PS3 and xBox360 will work with existing HDTV sets in Europe and Japan.

Re:No, you're wrong but what am I? (1)

SScorpio (595836) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716952)

The issue isn't whether or not the PS3 and 360 will display correctly on the HDTVs since both will work just fine. The issue the OP is talking about is that your TV is required to have HDCP (High Definition Content Protection) since few/none of the original HDTVs that were sold in America support. This means that protected BluRay and HDDVD movies will not display the HD version of the movie and will instead fall back to the 480p version. Thankfully it looks like a conversion box that decodes the signal and outputs a non-encrypted signal will be available, but that doesn't mean people should need them.

Re:No, you're wrong but what am I? (1)

WillAffleckUW (858324) | more than 8 years ago | (#14717140)

The issue isn't whether or not the PS3 and 360 will display correctly on the HDTVs since both will work just fine. The issue the OP is talking about is that your TV is required to have HDCP (High Definition Content Protection) since few/none of the original HDTVs that were sold in America support.

And my point was this is perhaps a problem in the US, but not in Europe or Japan.

Thanks for agreeing with me.

Re:No, you're wrong but what am I? (1)

SScorpio (595836) | more than 8 years ago | (#14717293)

Then you should probably type out what the point you are attempting to make is. You never meantioned HDCP, and you said Xbox360 won't have HDTV problems where currently it can't play either BluRay nor HDDVD so of course it won't. Stating that HDCP is a requirement for the TVs to be called "HD-Ready" in Europe and Japan would help people reading your post understand the point your making.

Re:No, you're wrong but what am I? (1)

RoadDoggFL (876257) | more than 8 years ago | (#14717393)

Your point isn't that it's "perhaps" a US-only problem. You flat-out stated that. And this:
"On January 19, 2005, the European Industry Association for Information Systems (EICTA) announced that HDCP is a required component of the European "HD ready" Label."
Kinda proves you wrong.

Re:No, you're wrong but what am I? (1)

WillAffleckUW (858324) | more than 8 years ago | (#14717433)

"On January 19, 2005, the European Industry Association for Information Systems (EICTA) announced that HDCP is a required component of the European "HD ready" Label."

A new requirement for a label is not the same thing as "I can plug my PS3 or xBox360 into my HDTV if I live in Europe or Japan and it works".

Works. Not uses a new overlay of protocols.

Again, mountains made from molehills.

Re:No, you're wrong but what am I? (1)

RoadDoggFL (876257) | more than 8 years ago | (#14717493)

Works. But in 480p, which is the point here. HDCP (also required in Europe, apparently), or lack thereof, will prevent some TVs from displaying HD (720p, 1080i/p, whatever) signal. So it'll work just fine in the US too, but it might not be worth it if the player won't send the higher def signal to your TV (or does the TV block it?), which apparently will happen at least in the US and Europe.

Any word on Japan?

Re:No, you're wrong but what am I? (1)

WillAffleckUW (858324) | more than 8 years ago | (#14717581)

If we'd just gone along with the HDTV signal patterns used by the rest of the world, none of this would have been a problem.

But no, we had to go create our own version ... and it isn't even better, it's worse.

Re:No, you're wrong but what am I? (1)

RoadDoggFL (876257) | more than 8 years ago | (#14717608)

This is a content protection issue, not a signal pattern issue.

And I take it you're from the States too? Otherwise, you have to define who exactly "we" is.

Re:No, you're wrong but what am I? (1)

MrPeavs (890124) | more than 8 years ago | (#14717302)

Thankfully it looks like a conversion box that decodes the signal and outputs a non-encrypted signal will be available, but that doesn't mean people should need them.

There is a slight problem with that, at least with Blu-ray, not sure on HD-DVD as of yet. Blu-ray is suppose to have a dynamic database that can be updated. They can tell it what it can send the signal to what can't. Meaning, they will find these devices and block them.

I understand them wanting to protecto their property, but the HDCP method is just the wrong way about going about it. The devices blocking feature is also taking it one step further in a direction they wouldn't need to go if they hadn't done HDCP.

As of writting, there are a few devices out there that will remove HDCP. However, they are illegal in the US, most of them don't say that they do it to try to protect themselves and the cheapest one I have seen was around $300.

Still wrong, that's what (1)

flyinwhitey (928430) | more than 8 years ago | (#14717069)

As others have aid, the problem is that HDCP is a DRM format that will be part of all...

Actually forget it. You're right. Keep on insisting you know what the hell is going on while you miss out on the actual conversation.

Re:PS3 & HDCP - do I have to buy HDTV now? (1)

MrPeavs (890124) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716810)

I bought my last HDTV almost 4 years ago, it will be 4 in may. The year after mine, sets started coming out with DVI and also HDCP. Not all that had DVI had HDCP though. Another year after that, we say HDMI really hit a lot of TVs. HDMI has to have HDCP, it is part of the specs.

However, if you have a DVI input with HDCP, you can get a HDMI to DVI converter. You can also go from DVI to a HDMI input. HDMI carries audio, so when you do something like that, audio is lost.

There is yet one more evolution to HDMI, which is HDMI 1.2 that can actually support 1080p. Up until recently, HDMI chips being released couldn't even support 1080p. Most of the 1080p TVs out now, can't even accept 1080p and are not "true" 1080p sets, they just upscale. The ones that can, most of them can only via VGA. We will see more this year hit the market that can actually accept 1080p via HDMI. It should also be known, that most 1080p sets out now don't even have true display drivers, most have to use a method called wobbleton, which is a stop gap technology until we see full fledge true 1080p sets.

Re:PS3 & HDCP - do I have to buy HDTV now? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14716951)

Bloody hell, acronym overload. And all I want is a television.

Re:PS3 & HDCP - do I have to buy HDTV now? (1)

MrPeavs (890124) | more than 8 years ago | (#14717226)

IF you want a new TV, you will need to know those terms.

HDMI and DVI are video input types.

HDCP is a copy protection scheme (HD Copy Protection)

1080p is one of the HD resolutions, it is 1920x1080 in progressive scan.

If you are looking for a good 26" - 36" HDTV, go with a Sony, can't go wrong with a Sony tubed CRT. If you want a larger TV, above 36" and don't want to spend much. Go with a Sony A10 rear projection LCD (last three numbers on the model number), the 42" should be around $1,500. If you can spend a little more, Mitsubishi and Toshiba DLPs are worth a look. If you have $4k to blow, you can get probably the best HDTV on the market right now, the Sony SXRD.

If you are looking for thinner models, the Sharp Aquos flat panel LCDs are going to give you a great TV for the money and a reasonable price. Otherwise, if you have cash to blow, the Sony Bravia are the best flat panel LCDs out there right now.

All these TVs will have HDMI and HDCP so you will be set for HD-DVD and Blu-ray, along with all the other HD content out there.

Re:PS3 & HDCP - do I have to buy HDTV now? (1)

WillAffleckUW (858324) | more than 8 years ago | (#14717727)

Nah, I'm just going to go there, say "Does it work with my laptop?" then have it demo'd, and then say "Does it work with the PS3?" and have them show me.

If it doesn't work out of the box, I just won't buy it.

And I'll buy it on sale for about $300.

Re:PS3 & HDCP (1)

apoc06 (853263) | more than 8 years ago | (#14717066)

you will still be able to buy an adaptor to use hdcp on your component tv.

Re:PS3 & HDCP (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14717339)

Is there anyone else out there scratching their heads about the latest TVs?

Really, playing the xbox is about the only thing I use the TV for, I watch some movies but not very many. I've got a 27" tv, it was $250-$300 new.

And up until oh, 2 years ago maybe, $250-$300 was the price of a 27" tv (unless you went for the extra cool trinitron or somesuch). 27" was a pretty standard size as well. Yeah, you could get bigger ones, but they were the high price items. There was the room of special projection big-ass TVs, and the handfull of big tube tvs. But you could be like "hey, I'm gonna get a special coolie tv!" and expect to pay like $600.

Now you're freakin slummin it if you think you're gonna get out of there with a TV for less than a grand! Am I incorrect, or has the average TV price quadrupled in the last few years? Does everyone else think that this is OK? I mean, yeah DLP and flat panel displays and HDTV and all that sounds pretty cool, but hell people $1100 has become the new "I don't want to spend a lot of money" pricepoint. TV JUST ISN'T THAT GOOD. Couple that with the fact that my 27", $270 TV doesn't particularly suck.

Which game system supports the digital-hldsp480i? Fuck off, man, I just wanna play a game. It might not happen this generation, but eventually everyone is going to look up and realize that they're all playing a nintendo on an analogue tv instead of the newest $700 PS720 on a $2300 DLP Flat panel. Or, at least, that's what I'll be doing. Maybe I'm just cheap.

Re:PS3 & HDCP (1)

Newander (255463) | more than 8 years ago | (#14717658)

I'm right there with you. I actually just replaced my 19" Shitbox(TM) with a 27" Toshiba. I'm really happy with it, and I can't see myself buying another TV for at least five years. Of course, I still read books...

Who defines "great start"? (0, Flamebait)

PaulCamelHump (736155) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716436)

"While the Xbox 360 is off to a great start..." This must be a definition of the phrase "great start" that I am not familiar with? Did they mean 'great' by the fact that they have production and delievery issues? 'Great' with buggy systems and boat anchor power supply? or 'great' with the fact that the released games look nearly the same as the old xbox games?

Re:Who defines "great start"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14716602)

Great as in the other guy hasn't even shown up yet, let alone gotten out of the gate.

Re:Who defines "great start"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14716633)

Strange, my launch Xbox 360 is working fine, and the games I have bought for it like PDZ look much much better then my Xbox 1.

Re:Who defines "great start"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14716661)

Strange, my launch Xbox 360 is working fine, and the games I have bought for it like PDZ look much much better then my Xbox 1.

but.. but.. the poster you replied to have read it on Slashdot!!!

Re:Who defines "great start"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14717723)

than

Sony didn't "win" E3 last year... (2, Informative)

Cutriss (262920) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716522)

After Sony stole the show last year with their dazzling game trailers

Say what? I was at E3 last year. Sony was getting mocked for those same trailers, while Microsoft did have playable games.

Seriously, even those without a historical perspective on E3 should be able to read this line and say "WTF?". Game trailers can be dazzling, but they *never* steal the show.

Re:Sony didn't "win" E3 last year... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14717139)

well, perhaps not to you or your circle. but the sony trailers got peoples' imaginations going. "could they really pull off gameplay this involved?", "were those real games, or just ideas of what games could look like?"... by e3 most of us had seen what the x360 had to offer. it was more of the same from the mtv special. only difference was the ability to actually play games ourselves and not watch some random celeb. people wanted to see what the industry leader was bringing to the table since microsoft had already thrown down the gauntlet.

Re:Sony didn't "win" E3 last year... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14717251)

"Were those real games, or just ideas of what games could look like?"

"Real games"? Well, of course they were, they were all games we've seen before. MSG4, Gran Turismo 5, SOCOM 3, Sequel 6: The Return, etc...

people wanted to see what the industry leader was bringing to the table

Fanboy much?

PS3 (1, Troll)

the computer guy nex (916959) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716587)

"After Sony stole the show last year with their dazzling game trailers, will actual hands-on impressions of the PS3 stand up to all the hype"

That E3 show set Sony back. The trailors were nothing more than CGI movies of what Sony hoped their games would look like. The hardware no where near resembled what will really be in the PS3.

Also the PS3 will not launch any less than $500 without absolutely massive losses per unit. The 360 at this point will have markdowns to around $250.

The PS3 will win this generation only if they can convince the average family that the PS3 is worth 2x the price. The normal fanboys will buy it no matter what the price, but these sales will be limited.

Re:PS3 (1)

wift (164108) | more than 8 years ago | (#14717062)

I agree whole heartedly on everything you said except the 360 markdown. I don't see one coming. Not with the PS3's price being so high.

Re:PS3 (4, Interesting)

oGMo (379) | more than 8 years ago | (#14717622)

That E3 show set Sony back. The trailors were nothing more than CGI movies of what Sony hoped their games would look like.

Then their hopes were pretty realistic. Compare Old Snake [ign.com] from MGS4 which we know to be realtime with the Killzone demo [ign.com] shown, and you'll find that if anything, MGS4 is looking better. (Compare the high polycount, beads of sweat, skin texturing, and hair on Snake to what's in the KZ shot.)

And these are just the first-gen showings of the PS3.

The hardware no where near resembled what will really be in the PS3.

The... hardware? This is assuming you, a chronic Microsoft troll (mods: see poster's history), actually have inside information. Which is doubtful. This also assumes your statement makes any sense. What are you claiming? The specs Sony gave are false? That it won't have a Cell or nvidia GPU? That the box might look different? Seriously. If the games look like what Sony claimed (see Project Offset [ign.com] for some more impressive realtime videos), what else matters?

Also the PS3 will not launch any less than $500 without absolutely massive losses per unit. The 360 at this point will have markdowns to around $250.

You know this for a fact, do you? When it's already been confirmed long ago [ign.com] that the PS3 will launch at the same price-point the PS2 and PS1 did?

The PS3 will win this generation only if they can convince the average family that the PS3 is worth 2x the price. The normal fanboys will buy it no matter what the price, but these sales will be limited.

The PS3 will win this generation because they have all the games. That's what matters.

Dumping? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14716642)

I'd be curious about other blu-ray manufacturers decide to block sony's importing of those PS3's.

After all - if company X charges $1500 for thir blu-ray machine, isn't Sony's $500 blu-ray box just being dumped?

Just a thought - trade law isn't my area of expertise.

Re:Dumping? (1)

apoc06 (853263) | more than 8 years ago | (#14717206)

manufacturers will do the same thing they did to the ps2. shut up and take it. they cant do anything.

sony is allowing them to use the blu-ray license to make their players. they could drop the prices of their tech too, but they have no incentive in the way sony does with the ps3.

just like dvd players and the ps2, people will graduate from the ps3 to a "real" dedicated blu-ray player when the time comes. companies know that and will see to early adopters in order to create a demand which will then drop the cost of manufacturing eventually to a point where blu-ray players will be cheaper than the ps3.

Sony stole the show? I think not. (2, Interesting)

Casharelle (746564) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716707)

I think the honor of 'stealing the show' at last years E3 went resoundingly to Will Wright and the rather stunning presentation of 'Spore'.

Re:Sony stole the show? I think not. (1)

shadowcode (852856) | more than 8 years ago | (#14717051)

Don't you mean Pee [penny-arcade.com] ?

Re:Sony stole the show? I think not. (1)

WillAffleckUW (858324) | more than 8 years ago | (#14717496)

No, I think he did mean Spore. All the TV coverage said that it was something that stuck in people's minds and grew.

Halo 3? (1)

Langfat (953252) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716794)

HALO 3 anybody?

With the news that Halo 2 is going to be the flagship game for vista [slashdot.org] I would be surprised to see Halo 3 before Vista is released. And the way things are looking, that will be significantly after the PS3 is released.

I can't imagine Microsoft wanting to remind PC gamers just how OLD Halo 2 is...it needs to appear to be 'sexy' and 'new' for the Vista release, not 2+ years old with a sequel already out...

Re:Halo 3? (1)

MrPeavs (890124) | more than 8 years ago | (#14716870)

Halo was released for the PC well after it was released on the Xbox during the lauch. I don't know the exact time frame, but Halo 2 is falling some where in line with it.

If you want to play the newest Halo, it is plain and simple, you have to own a Xbox 360. Same as you needed a Xbox to play Halo and Halo 2 when they first came out.

Re:Halo 3? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14717185)

Halo came out for the PC the same time Halo 2 came out for the XBox so this wouldn't surprise me at all.

For the Nintendo fanboys (4, Insightful)

RyoShin (610051) | more than 8 years ago | (#14717042)

And before you ask, the Revolution is not included here because it wasn't really a factor last year and we're hearing that even with the console hitting this year, it won't be Nintendo primary focus at E3.

Are you freaking kidding?

You're telling me that the Revolution, Nintendo's stop gap console with a radically new controller, 20 years of backwards compatability, and easier developer programming (or so I've heard), which is coming out sometime this year is not going to be a primary focus?

Can we revoke the gaming journalism liscense for these guys?

The Revolution wasn't a focus last year because Nintendo like to keep things under wraps until the last possible moment. The used E3 last year to show off Twilight Princess and the GBM.

Even Nintendo knows that you have to have a big showing before the release to get people fired up and interested (well, those that aren't already.) Nintendo's main focus will most likely be the Revolution. I'm sure we'll have some DS and GBA goodies, as well as TP, but the Revolution will be pretty much all anyone will be interested in, especially because they will have playable demos on E3.

I'm sure that Sony wil have a big showing, but everyone will want to at least give the Revolution a try, just to see what it will be like.

Here's hoping they have cover a good number of genres with their setups, even if the games are just demos. I think that, right now, getting people in on the idea of using the remote in different ways is really important.

For the Nintendo fangirls (1)

WillAffleckUW (858324) | more than 8 years ago | (#14717179)

You're telling me that the Revolution, Nintendo's stop gap console with a radically new controller, 20 years of backwards compatability, and easier developer programming (or so I've heard), which is coming out sometime this year is not going to be a primary focus?

Of course not. The focus will be on the handheld Nintendo games, and plans to make them more wireless group compatible, with more cooperative local team games.

Basically, so that people can play Nintendogs in a virtual dog park while waiting for the bus.

Why push a product that isn't at launch instead of a growing market segment product that is taking off like wildfire?

Re:For the Nintendo fanboys (1)

TheBlackSwordsman (870838) | more than 8 years ago | (#14717355)

Exactly. So the Revolution won't be Nintendo's primary focus at this year's E3, huh? I guess that's why they bothered sending out E3 '06 invitations half a year in advance [gamespot.com] to all the major gaming news outlets, announcing that the Revolution would be unveiled at...E3 2006.


Only an idiot would think that Nintendo's primary focus at this year's E3 would be anything other than the Revolution.

I need TP! For my bunghole! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#14717543)

I was really confused as to what TP could be when I read your post. "...DS and GBA goodies, as well as TP"? Highly confuzzling! TP? He can't mean Toilet Paper? Maybe there's some handheld of which I have never heard, the Tiny Player perhaps?! It's even smaller than the GBM??? What is he talking about??!? And then I typed out TP, and I realized: TP! Twilight Princess! geez.. I should turn in my Fanboy card, or not feed my Nintendogs for a day, or purposefully lose a race when playing Mario Kart DS online. IDIOT!
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