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Talent Build Examples for Blizzard's New Death Knight

ScuttleMonkey posted more than 5 years ago | from the balance-is-always-a-fun-game dept.

Role Playing (Games) 130

With Blizzard's Wrath of the Lich King NDA out of the way, there has been the inevitable flood of information about the new expansion hitting the streets. One of the most sought-after pieces of information is anything about the new class being introduced, the Death Knight. Massively has a great summary, with video examples, of the three different avenues available to the Death Knight. From the AE strengths of unholy, to the life-stealing blood tree, to the control of the frost tree, it seems that this new juggernaut is certainly going to be a force to be reckoned with.

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Age of Conan much more interesting. (-1, Flamebait)

arcade (16638) | more than 5 years ago | (#24278233)

Not to start a big flameware about games. I realize that World of Warcraft is a massive game, with much more in-game content (for now) - but in my personal opinion, Age of Conan is a much more interesting game.

The main reason, for my part, is that it's based on a much more interested universe that has been explored in (mature) comics for many, many years. Now, with the release of the game, a whole new part of the universe has opened. A universe I personally find way more interesting and appealing than the universe of World of Warcraft.

(Of course, there's still the stability bugs, the memory bugs, the lack of content in many areas - and even the lack of areas .. but all that will be fixed in a timely manner. :-)

Re:Age of Conan much more interesting. (5, Funny)

ivan256 (17499) | more than 5 years ago | (#24278395)

Translation: Not to start a flamewar, but let's talk about something off topic, since it's sure to be something that will get under the skin of the types of people who would read this particular article..

Maybe it's just me, but isn't that the definition of trying to start a flamewar?

Re:Age of Conan much more interesting. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24278725)

Axiom: "Not trying to XXX" should and will automatically be followed by something devoted to do XXX.

Although I agree with you, the OP is flamebaiting and offtopic, you should be aware of the aforementioned axiom.

Re:Age of Conan much more interesting. (1)

trytoguess (875793) | more than 6 years ago | (#24282521)

Offtopic yes, though when was stating ones opinion over something trivial like a computer game in a calm fashion a fucking flamebait? Hell, this post is more flambait, it has hell and fuck! *gasp*

Re:Age of Conan much more interesting. (-1, Offtopic)

Alzheimers (467217) | more than 5 years ago | (#24278431)

Not to start a big flamewar about games, but all these barbarians prancing around with faeries comes off as "pretty ghey".

Which is why EVE Online is the greatest MMO, ever.

Pfft. That's not even true (2, Funny)

Moraelin (679338) | more than 5 years ago | (#24279249)

Not to start a big flamewar about games, but all these barbarians prancing around with faeries comes off as "pretty ghey".

Pfft. That's not even true.

I'll have you know that my barbarian in EQ2 had some delicate earrings and a delicate necklace with a butterfly pendant. And let's just say that the "monk outfit" showed so much skin that you'd think skin cancer was all the rage. If you think being grouped with some Faeries made him look "teh ghey", you haven't seen him ;)

Re:Age of Conan much more interesting. (0, Redundant)

bugnuts (94678) | more than 5 years ago | (#24278451)

AoC is more interesting visually, and from levels 1-20.

That's about all.

Crappy content, annoying bugs, stealth changes/nerfs every tuesday.

Yeah, I subscribed for 3 months to give them a little boost, but I knew I'd stop playing after 1.

Re:Age of Conan much more interesting. (1)

Wylfing (144940) | more than 5 years ago | (#24278495)

Ever since I became aware of AoC a few years back, I have been holding out hope that it will address what feels like the biggest failing of WoW: that content is spread so freakishly thinly across the world. I like the way Tycho on Penny-Arcade put it, that standing in Lakeshire makes you wonder why they don't bother making a game out of all the raw material they have in the world. You show up in a place, do a quest for 6 minutes, and then you leave the area, never to return.

Anyway, I hope that AoC invests more deeply in each location, building richness into what's already there instead of racing to build a hundred empty areas like WoW has.

Re:Age of Conan much more interesting. (4, Insightful)

Krater76 (810350) | more than 5 years ago | (#24278763)

I like the way Tycho on Penny-Arcade put it, that standing in Lakeshire makes you wonder why they don't bother making a game out of all the raw material they have in the world.

It might not be the game Tycho wants. They made their game, and while somewhat entertaining it wasn't what I wanted.

And that's the heart of the problem. Some people want crazy continent-wide PvP. Some people just want to explore. Some people want to destroy the largest monsters in the world. Some people want shiny stuff. Some people want to be involved with, or be the focus of, a story. And some people just want to buy/sell/create stuff and never leave town. And everyone wants to do it at varying speeds (the casual vs. hardcore).

You can't please everyone. You can certainly try, but Blizzard has certainly given up in a lot of places. World PvP and crafting are definitely two that come to mind right off the bat. They are going to try for some things in regards to world PvP in WotLK but we'll see how that goes. They tried updates to world PvP in BC as well and that didn't turn out so great. Crafting is more of a money sink than anything else and is considered by many to be one of the worst crafting systems in MMOs. I doubt that will change.

Re:Age of Conan much more interesting. (4, Insightful)

Oliver Wendell Jones (158103) | more than 5 years ago | (#24279441)

Any game that features PvE and PvP is never going to please everyone. It takes a great deal of effort to fairly balance a game for either PvE or PvP - it's almost impossible to do. People who play PvE want big weapons (or spells or whatever) that do massive damage, and if it can kill your opponent in one swing (casting, etc.) that's even better. In PvP, no one wants to go into a fight knowing that they can be one-hit-killed, so weapons, spells, etc. have to be toned down.

Crafting is another touch situation. If you can craft anything that is profitable, then everyone will jump on that wagon and drive the value down.

I have played a lot of MMORPGs (the original Neverwinter Nights on AOL back in the early 1990s, right up through WoW and have yet to find a game that can fairly and accurately balance a PvE and PvP situation to keep a majority of people happy - WoW comes closest, but there will always be people who are unhappy.

BTW - I'm playing Dungeon Runners [dungonerunners.com] right now and it's a blast (if a bit simple) and you can't argue with the price (free, or $5/mo if you want all the features).

Re:Age of Conan much more interesting. (1)

snuf23 (182335) | more than 5 years ago | (#24279701)

The problem with BC world PVP is that there isn't much of a reward for doing it. The item rewards are pretty useless. You will out level them before you get them. Since there isn't really a compelling reason to control the world pvp areas, people rarely bother.
I'm sure if they opened up a level 70 PVP area in Netherstorm or Shadowmoon Valley and rewarded badges of justice that would see some activity.

Re:Age of Conan much more interesting. (3, Insightful)

Tridus (79566) | more than 5 years ago | (#24280017)

The real problem with world PvP is that too many servers are faction imbalanced. When one side outnumbers the other 2:1 at ANY encounter, the whole thing becomes pointless.

Making it give rewards makes the problem worse, since the bigger side always wins, it'll also outgear the smaller side. It also encourages people to leech (such as AFKing in BGs and the rampant cheating in Season 3 arenas) to get the rewards faster, instead of actually playing.

(Honestly, world PvP was at its best in the days of the original Taren Mill vs. Southshore fights, which had no rewards whatsoever. People did it because it was fun, not to get l33t shinies.)

Re:Age of Conan much more interesting. (1)

P51mus (1266460) | more than 5 years ago | (#24281927)

Mark of Conquest [wowhead.com] was a great Hunter item for long fights, at least back before I stopped playing. Dunno what it's considered now.

Of course, that was practically the *only* world pvp item worth anything.

Re:Age of Conan much more interesting. (1)

Deathdonut (604275) | more than 5 years ago | (#24278851)

I always loved that comic :)

AoC has solved the issue in one regard: Due to travel requirements you have to at least RIDE THROUGH the old content again to get to the higher level content. Granted, it wastes 20 minutes of your time, but at least you can appreciate how nice it was to level in zones with sufficient quests to level you.

Sadly, I have to agree with the above poster that while interesting for levels 1-20 and having some nifty visuals, the game has failed on too many other levels from obviously rushed (read: buggy) code/patches to sparse higher level content. There are some design decisions too, but implementation is their biggest hurdle and as the 3 month subscriptions come around for renewal, they are quickly running out of time to address them.

I raised a HoX to 80 and called it quits. I suspect my attention will be directed towards WAR or WotLK by the time things are cleaned up.

Re:Age of Conan much more interesting. (2, Informative)

edremy (36408) | more than 5 years ago | (#24279109)

Who has to ride for 20 minutes anywhere in AOC? It takes 30 seconds or less to cross any zone once you have explored it
  1. Kill yourself. PvP, cliffs, drowning, whatever.
  2. Res on the other side of the zone
  3. Laugh at all the people who shelled out 2g for a horse

Embrace the deathport, the only *real* way to travel in AOC. (43 PoM before realizing the game was only half baked.)

Re:Age of Conan much more interesting. (1)

Danny Rathjens (8471) | more than 5 years ago | (#24280621)

Apparently you missed last week's patch that modified the fast travel points(wagon/boat) in the major cities to take you to the middle and furthest zones beyond - not just the nearest zone. ;)

Re:Age of Conan much more interesting. (1)

montyzooooma (853414) | more than 6 years ago | (#24286385)

He did miss it, like a lot of other people, because he's not playing any more. Like him I left but I'll be back to Age of Conan some day. However I suspect I'll have burned out on WotLK before I do. Hopefully by then Funcom will have stitched something worthwhile from their corpse of a game, assuming it doesn't go the way of Asherons Call 2, which WOULD be a shame.
I'm glad I tried AoC but I'm glad I quit too.

Re:Age of Conan much more interesting. (1)

thesandtiger (819476) | more than 5 years ago | (#24279815)

I'm not sure what you mean about there not being enough quests in each zone to level (in WoW). A few months back they released a massive patch that changed the whole 1-60 game. They changed quests to give a lot more xp, reduced the amount of xp you needed to level, and re-itemized quest rewards and instance loot so that they're actually somewhat useful rather than being random garbage.

In the latest patch, they threw a bone in to make it even easier - mounts are now gotten at 30, for less gold, instead of at 40.

Also, when Burning Crusade came out, both the new starting zones for the 2 new races were put in, and those will easily get someone to 20, are (in my opinion) interesting, well designed, and generally a lot more fun than the old starting areas.

I agree that vanilla WoW was pretty meh at points, but they've done a bit to change it. I wouldn't mind if they kept on adding new zones, but there's a fair amount of content there now.

Re:Age of Conan much more interesting. (1)

Deathdonut (604275) | more than 5 years ago | (#24280041)

Sorry, I got sidetracked by the off-topic parent and thus was off-topic myself. The mention of skimpy content was directed at AoC rather than WoW (which has never deserved a criticism for lacking content).

Re:Age of Conan much more interesting. (3, Funny)

snuf23 (182335) | more than 5 years ago | (#24279637)

And then you hit Hellfire Peninsula and spend three or more long, painful levels staring a the Mars like terrain getting squished by random fel reavers. Then you leave and are happy never to return to it.

Re:Age of Conan much more interesting. (1)

MeanderingMind (884641) | more than 5 years ago | (#24279999)

Personally, I loved Hellfire Peninsula. The first time I walked through the portal, heard the music, saw the rampaging demons and the spacious sky I was simply awed.

Then I got squished by a Fel Reaver a half dozen times and became paranoid. I remember weeping once when I watched a line of Alliance and Horde questers get squished one after the other as they fought quest mobs, oblivious to the shaking ground.

Good times.

parent is not offtopic (1)

unity100 (970058) | more than 5 years ago | (#24279947)

age of conan and world of warcraft are two close competitors for the top slot of mmo genre. the two games also generally employ very similar concepts. although age of conan generally expands on many of them.

whomever modded the parent offtopic is either someone who didnt play both of the games or a fanboi of world of warcraft. or clueless. either applies. combinations may apply too.

Re:parent is not offtopic (1)

Tridus (79566) | more than 5 years ago | (#24280057)

In a post about Death Knight talent specs, someone spends an entire post talking about another game.

What planet do you live on where thats not offtopic? Its no different then going into a post about kernel licensing and talking about some new doodad in Vista.

Re:parent is not offtopic (1)

unity100 (970058) | more than 5 years ago | (#24280773)

did you play that other game ?

if you had, you'd see that it is basically almost on the same outline as wow, however improved.

vista and linux are not comparable items. they are fundamentally different not only in their code and implementation, but philosophy. this doesnt apply here.

Re:parent is not offtopic (1)

greenpanda (679394) | more than 6 years ago | (#24287423)

AoC has absolutely nothing to do with the talent spec of Death Knights. What's more it was the first post - if the guy had waited for others to post first, I wouldn't have had to scroll down half a page of even more offtopic replies before I finally found someone who ON-topic! Posted 3 minutes after the story, the guy probably didn't bother with the article and just decided to get his flamebait in asap.

No! Don't look! (2, Funny)

Lord MuffloN (1310101) | more than 5 years ago | (#24278363)

It'll take another piece of your soul!

Too soon! (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24278435)

Heath just died, and already you're calling it "The Death Knight"?

Too soon guys, too soon.

Re:Too soon! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24278791)

WTF?!? They release plans for the "Death Knight" Way before his death. This is a valid class based on the Lore of the game.

Re:Too soon! (1)

Chris Burke (6130) | more than 5 years ago | (#24278959)

*woosh*
(The joke was about calling the movie "The Dark Night" "The Death Knight"... not a very good joke but hey)

Re:Too soon! (4, Insightful)

4D6963 (933028) | more than 5 years ago | (#24279099)

*woosh*

A bit off topic but I see so many people missing jokes on Slashdot and people replying "whoosh" that I seriously think we should have a -1, Whoosh moderation option.

Re:Too soon! (3, Funny)

Chris Burke (6130) | more than 5 years ago | (#24279429)

I seriously think we should have a -1, Whoosh moderation option.

I agree, but only for the comedic possibilities of using it in other situations. E.g. the post "My experiences working with wind tunnels (Score: 0, Whoosh)" and so forth.

Re:Too soon! (1)

ikono (1180291) | more than 5 years ago | (#24279071)

*woosh*!

Re:Too soon! (1)

ikono (1180291) | more than 5 years ago | (#24279095)

Aww phooey... Too late by 6 minutes...

Re:Too soon! (1)

Wandering Wombat (531833) | more than 5 years ago | (#24279903)

Why is there no "+1 Douche" mod?

Re:Too soon! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24282601)

Race conditions.

Re:Too soon! (1)

lorelorn (869271) | more than 6 years ago | (#24284107)

There is, but all those points go automatically to John Edwards.

Re:Too soon! (1)

maglor_83 (856254) | more than 6 years ago | (#24283805)

They release plans for the "Death Knight" Way before his death.

Well that certainly calls into question the circumstances of his death now doesn't it!

Re:Too soon! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24279537)

Heath just died, and already you're calling it "The Death Knight"?

Too soon guys, too soon.

You want cold? There's a guild on Whisperwind called "Heath Ledger Needs a Rez"

Re:Too soon! (1)

AdamThor (995520) | more than 5 years ago | (#24279675)

PFFF! As if any candy bar has a chance stuck in a room with a bunch of MMOPRGers!

Why is this even on slashdot? (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24278479)

I'd expect this to be a great digg topic, but /.?

WoW has one good thing with MMOs. It keeps all the bad players in one place, so other MMOs (DAoC, EQ1, EQ2, Vanguard, CoH/CoV, etc.) have far better quality of players to group/raid with.

Re:Why is this even on slashdot? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24278547)

Or maybe all MMORPGs have jerks and assholes and it is just a scale difference? I've yet to find one that wasn't full of selfish pricks out to ruin everyone else's day.

have you looked in a mirror? (4, Insightful)

PC and Sony Fanboy (1248258) | more than 5 years ago | (#24279207)

Most of the people whining about how their game is ruined by others ARE jerks, assholes, and selfish pricks out to ruin everyone else's day. Normal people just stop playing.

Re:have you looked in a mirror? (0, Flamebait)

DarkProphet (114727) | more than 5 years ago | (#24281889)

You're just bitter because you get pwned by the twinks in BG. QQ some more, maybe someone will feel sorry for you.

Re:Why is this even on slashdot? (3, Insightful)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 5 years ago | (#24278809)

I've seen just as many asswipes in other games as in WoW. While many of them leave for WoW eventually, most don't -- some even bring back bad habits from WoW.

I think the other poster is right -- it's got nothing to do with the game, and everything to do with the scale.

Re:Why is this even on slashdot? (1)

Tridus (79566) | more than 5 years ago | (#24280111)

Having played several other MMOs in the post-WoW era, I found three things:

1. Morons, same as WoW has
2. Elitist jerks who think they're cool because they're playing some less popular game, no matter how much of a half-baked buggy mess it happens to be. This varies from the WoW Elitist jerks, who feel that way because they have more purples or bought a higher arena rating.
3. Relatively normal people who enjoy playing the game and like playing with others who also enjoy playing it.

The only real difference is the brand of Elitist jerk, and the scale of the games.

Re:Why is this even on slashdot? (1)

Random_Goblin (781985) | more than 6 years ago | (#24287343)

Funnily enough Elitistjerks.com [elitistjerks.com] aren't into bought arena ratings at all... mostly they are into excessive maths and gentlemanly discussions regarding wow theorycrafting

the example post i linked to has a frequency graph for spell effects on weapon speeds for goodness sake...

Re:Why is this even on slashdot? (1)

Lehk228 (705449) | more than 5 years ago | (#24282175)

what are you talking about? I quested with at least as many assclown and retards in EQ/ EQ2 as in WoW. the only real difference is that at least in EQ there were 1001 ways to get back at said assclown.

Class balance finally revealed (4, Funny)

Wylfing (144940) | more than 5 years ago | (#24278539)

Now we finally understand Blizzard's strategy of class balance and all this "e-sport" nonsense! You see, they'll introduce a new class that is so vastly superior to all the others that everyone stops playing the other classes.

Balance issues solved!

Re:Class balance finally revealed (1)

PrescriptionWarning (932687) | more than 5 years ago | (#24278641)

Balance can also be achieved when the only players left playing are those who don't care about whether they have the most powerful class or not.

Obligatory (2, Funny)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 5 years ago | (#24278743)

Obligatory Penny-Arcade: http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/7/14/ [penny-arcade.com]

Re:Obligatory (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24280479)

Obligatory Penny-Arcade: http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/7/14/ [penny-arcade.com]

Good job linking to a comic about an entirely different game, retard

Re:Obligatory (1)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 5 years ago | (#24281053)

Try actually reading it. Third panel describes exactly what I was replying to.

You see, they'll introduce a new class that is so vastly superior to all the others that everyone stops playing the other classes.

Reminded me of:

Chaos World-Smasher -- balance problems

Re:Obligatory (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24283119)

Actual obligatory Penny Arcade: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/10/16/

Re:Class balance finally revealed (3, Informative)

Shivetya (243324) | more than 5 years ago | (#24278781)

Well from the videos I have seen I would sadly have to agree.

Yet as a HERO class what else can they do and still set the class apart? I think their biggest mistake with this class is the fact only one HERO class is coming. They should have had at least two. Still, TBC and further additions of content have turned the game into Monty Hall. You either PvP or Raid else you don't get the shiny stuff. No long drawn out quests compete with raiding epics or welfare epics.

This class seriously risks replacing some classes or variants of classes. Yet I expect the one place where it will be put in its place is among raiders. They don't suffer so much the flavor of the month. So if it shows up in significant numbers during raids that will truly indicate whether or not it is overly powerful. Hardcore raiders are of a different mindset than arena players or pvp bg play. Whereas gimmicks rule the day for pvp (arena,bg) its teamwork and synergy that rule raids.

If anything I guess we needed a monty hall class to go with the monty hall loot.

Re:Class balance finally revealed (1)

Krater76 (810350) | more than 5 years ago | (#24279019)

The DK class will serve one major purpose and that is as a tank. As anyone who plays WoW knows, there is a massive shortage of viable tanks (prot-spec warriors or tanking druids, with the proper gear). Since most raid spots only need 1 or two tanks, if you still want to be guaranteed a raid spot or be nigh-unkillable in PvP, roll a healer.

Re:Class balance finally revealed (5, Informative)

archen (447353) | more than 5 years ago | (#24279187)

Things will be changing however. Currently tanks (and healers somewhat) simply cannot do enough damage to solo things very well. In the expansion everyone will do more damage, and thus have some solo viability. Threat generated will also be changed and it looks like people will be able to tank more with an off spec. And from what I've seen the tank shortage (aside from the large responsibility) often comes down to the fact that when you are spec'd to tank, that's about all you can do, and many would like to do other things.

The Burning Crusade made a lot of good changes and made many classes viable, but it also seemed to pigeon hole just about everyone into one spec and/or one job. It looks like Blizzard is trying to allow people to have much more versatility in the way they play, while still being viable.

Re:Class balance finally revealed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24279921)

Things will be changing however. Currently tanks (and healers somewhat) simply cannot do enough damage to solo things very well. ... And from what I've seen the tank shortage (aside from the large responsibility) often comes down to the fact that when you are spec'd to tank, that's about all you can do, and many would like to do other things.

Yeah if you want any viable form of PvP as a warrior then protection spec is right out.

Re:Class balance finally revealed (4, Insightful)

bwindle2 (519558) | more than 5 years ago | (#24280179)

If they really want to fix the soloing problem AND the tank/healer shortage all at once, they need to make respecs free. My paladin has a great healing set, and a decent tanking set, and a meh ret set. I am not willing to drop 100G to respec prot and back again to tank some pug that'll likely suck anyway. I also can't afford to drop 100G to respec Retibution to do (some) better damage for soloing.

But if re-specing were free, or at least a heck of a lot cheaper, I might.

Re:Class balance finally revealed (1)

archen (447353) | more than 5 years ago | (#24281035)

Actually they're looking to do something like that. I can't recall the details off the top of my head, but it was something like you could switch between builds or something to that effect. I'm not sure if it would be free, but I seem to remember them saying it would be more or less.

Blizzard is actually quite perceptive here in my opinion. Some servers are really starting to suffer the talent drain from the gamers who came to World of Warcraft, they played, they conquered, they left for the next challenge in gaming. What I'm getting at here is that the last thing most people need is to have a great player, but then have them play a class that is stuck and can only do one thing. These people are often the grease that allows things to go smoothly and other players to experience content - think of that totally awesome tank that can take on anything, or the great healer who picks up the slack for the rest of the raid. On top of this they push PvP and arena. If they kept shoehorning people into one specific role as they had been they'd end up with players being so stratified that the game becomes dysfunctional because of that alone. So removing the respec penalty is another step in allowing more versatility in play. That was my understanding of an article I read. This is hearsay of course so don't take this post as gospel that this is set in stone and going to happen.

Re:Class balance finally revealed (1)

shermo (1284310) | more than 6 years ago | (#24284697)

Talent stables will allow you to freely switch between 2 specs.

Re:Class balance finally revealed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24280985)

Things will be changing however. Currently tanks (and healers somewhat) simply cannot do enough damage to solo things very well.

Sorry, but if that's what you're seeing, then the people playing those tanks need to learn to play to the strengths of their classes. I have a protection paladin, whose dps is atrociously low against a single mob - usually around 200 dps; I also have a warlock, whose dps against a single mob that lives long enough for the dots to reach max potency will easily tick 700+ dps. The difference is in the size of the pulls I can manage: my paladin easily pulls 8-10 mobs and burns them all down slowly. The warlock pulls 2 or 3 mobs at once, and burns them down quickly. Different strategies are required to play each effectively, but I don't see my paladin as significantly less capable of soloing than my warlock is.

often comes down to the fact that when you are spec'd to tank, that's about all you can do, and many would like to do other things.

Huh? Would it make any sense to say: "It often comes down to the fact that when you are spec'd to dps, that's about all you can do, and many would like to do other things."

If you are playing a tank class, it's not *necessary* to be pushing out dps like a rogue or a mage does. You do less dps, but you also withstand quite a bit more punishment so you can afford to take longer to kill the mobs, and pull more mobs at once. Different specs have their strengths and weaknesses... if you want to play a high-dps class, don't roll a prot warrior or paladin. If you want to tank, don't roll a mage. If you want to be able to do either, then l2respec and roll a hybrid, and assemble decent sets for both specs.

Re:Class balance finally revealed (1)

Anarke_Incarnate (733529) | more than 5 years ago | (#24279783)

You left out paladins. Druids cannot block. There are fights that still have crushing blows. Also, with the latest buffs from the released specs on Paladins, it looks like their successes will only continue.

Re:Class balance finally revealed (1)

P51mus (1266460) | more than 5 years ago | (#24282045)

There are fights that still have crushing blows.

Crushing Blows are being taken out of the game in WotLK, along with a whole bunch of other changes.

Gear homogenization, or simplification or whatever they're calling it. Pallies and warrior tanks will use the exact same gear for tanking, no more tank gear with spellpower on it. Instead they're giving protection a stam-> spellpower talent. +Healing is gone, only +Spellpower is left. Coefficients on healing spells are being raised to compensate. Melee and spell crit rating are being rolled into crit rating, same thing with hit rating (I think this is mainly a shaman buff). Also, both hunters and enhancement shamans have talents that give 1 ap for every int point you have. And they're trying to make spirit useful for all spellcasters (and reworking a few warlock talents to work with spirit....). Maybe some other stuff I forgot about.

I'm especially wondering how the spirit change will work out, haven't heard much about it besides the talent changes for warlocks (which have been much whined about).

Re:Class balance finally revealed (1)

Anarke_Incarnate (733529) | more than 6 years ago | (#24282821)

Oh, I am aware of the changes. However, there is no official ruling as to whether there will be any more gear with spellpower on it. From screen shots of some of the alpha blues, it looks like they were at least toying with the idea of it. However, there ARE still bosses that have crushing blows.

Even so, the point was that I had an issue with the only "real" tanks being druids and warriors. The DKs are there as the "anti magic" tank. They are going to have a lot of DPS and versatility and not the stigma that Paladins have had since they had limited viability in pre BC and had to fight tooth and nail after BC. I am an "end game" tankadin (ZA/T5) and I have had good success. People who think that Pallies cannot tank are either fooling themselves or pick apart some gimmick fights like Maiden or Mother. Guild/server/world first kills involved paladins tanking the bosses. They are not the ONLY tanks, but they are perfectly viable, regardless of what the OP said.

Re:Class balance finally revealed (1)

P51mus (1266460) | more than 6 years ago | (#24283493)

Oh, I am aware of the changes. *lots of stuff snipped out, read the post if you're really interested* They are not the ONLY tanks, but they are perfectly viable, regardless of what the OP said.

Ah. Well, paladins are becoming even more viable tanks in WotLK, no?

I haven't been playing that close attention since, well, I'm not playing it atm. But I do like to keep tabs on all possible opponents/allies. And since my online friends can't seem to play any other MMOs for much more than a week or two, I'll get sucked back in eventually. (DAMN YOU WOW!)

Re:Class balance finally revealed (1)

Anarke_Incarnate (733529) | more than 6 years ago | (#24284087)

In some ways, yes. Time will tell, as I have been a "theorycrafter" for a while. A lot of the conventions for tanking will change. We will have to stock block value for viability in threat (our shield slam) but then if we block too much, we won't get enough mana return from Spiritual Attunement. We will need a spell damage weapon for AoE threat (Consecrate won't be our only threat mechanic anymore) and then also need a DPS/tank type weapon for our new judgment based threat. I can see a lot of weapon twisting going on. Stamina will be stacked as that gives a 30% increase in spell power. I'm also extra glad I went mining and jewel crafting. Those both have high stamina returns available.

Re:Class balance finally revealed (1)

ichigo 2.0 (900288) | more than 5 years ago | (#24281189)

You either PvP or Raid else you don't get the shiny stuff. No long drawn out quests compete with raiding epics or welfare epics.

AFAIK there will be three different levels of raiding epics (heroic, 10-man, 25-man) with their own tier progression so it should be possible to get nice gear with casual gaming in lich king. I'm also guessing that the rating changes in season 4 are a sign of things to come, so the pvp/arena in lich king will require good ratings for epics. I.e. no more welfare epics.

Re:Class balance finally revealed (1)

bigstrat2003 (1058574) | more than 5 years ago | (#24281599)

You either PvP or Raid else you don't get the shiny stuff.

Huh. I guess I imagined my shiny crafted epics. Oh well.

Re:Class balance finally revealed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#24285901)

The player in those videos is using the gear earned in the DK starting air, which is VASTLY superior to the gear that the areas he is killing monsters in was tuned for.

Furthermore, it's the first beta build, and there is still a lot of class balancing to be done, and people looking only at the Death Knight and ignoring all the changes to the other classes are missing the big pictures. If I linked one of the screen shots of a level 70 paladin casting a judgement for 20,000 damage with only self-cast buff spells, it might put the videos into a better context. (For those who don't play the game, 20,000 damage is more health than 99% of level 70 players even have.)

That context being an initial beta push of a game that's not even going to be released for at least 4 months (and probably longer).

news? (1, Interesting)

Zironic (1112127) | more than 5 years ago | (#24278607)

What exactly makes this newsworthy? The NDA was lifted over a week ago and it's still alpha and in my experiance alot changes between alpha and release when it comes to blizzard.

Re:news? (4, Insightful)

MooseMuffin (799896) | more than 5 years ago | (#24278657)

You're in the games section. The newsworthy requirement is significantly reduced.

Re:news? (1)

Narpak (961733) | more than 5 years ago | (#24278711)

Indeed. The idea of a headline listing is to give you a wide range of selection; interesting to some; not so to others. You do not need to read or comment on that which do not interest you.

Re:news? (1)

Zironic (1112127) | more than 5 years ago | (#24278767)

I'm interested in games, i'm even directly interested in WoW and i'm planning to get myself a deathknight, it's just that this isn't terribly new or interesting information.

Re:news? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24278983)

I don't get the point of this discussion anyway... WotLK isn't going to be out until Feb 2009 anyway. In that time, almost every other MMO out there will have one significant expansion out, perhaps two.

The only reason people pay attention to WoW on /. is to make fun of it, and wonder why people play a game that has no real endgame once you reach level cap, other than maybe grinding factions or farming gold for yet another epic flying mount. At least Vanguard, if you max out one character, your alts get a 5-10% exp bonus so they are easier to level up if you want a tank after your DPS char is levelled up.

Re:news? (1)

geekboy642 (799087) | more than 5 years ago | (#24280285)

"no real endgame"

"grinding factions or farming gold"

You haven't played the wow endgame, or you just hate raiding, heroic dungeons, battlegrounds, arenas, crafting, questing in new zones like Sunwell, and improving your character in ways completely separate from the level. And if that's true, I have to wonder how you managed to play to level 70 without losing interest in the game. As for the vanguard comparison, wow leveling is simple enough (7 days /played time for a 70, or 2-3 months of playing a reasonable amount daily) that any additional leveling boost is largely unnecessary. Your first toon takes longer only because you haven't learned the game yet.

Let me be the first to say... (5, Funny)

Digitus1337 (671442) | more than 5 years ago | (#24278749)

Deathknight needs a nerf.

Re:Let me be the first to say... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24279575)

Fuck off, mage.

Re:Let me be the first to say... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24280763)

And Devil Bunny Needs a Ham

Classes are already out of whack (3, Insightful)

Durrok (912509) | more than 5 years ago | (#24278995)

All classes are imbalanced in certain situations or against certain classes. Resto spec druids are a good example, almost impossible to take down. Not a huge deal in most situations as they eventually run out of mana, run away, or 5+ people eventually mow them down but for WSG for instance, they make almost unstoppable flag runners. Rogues are another good example: cheat death (although recently nerfed), vanish, cloak of shadows, and stun/mace spec makes fighting most classes one on one or two on one a joke. Once again not a big deal until half the team is rogues and your team gets mowed down as they spawn.

WoW already has unbalanced classes or specs... why makes us think they are going to really care if the Death Knight is out of whack? Isn't that the whole idea as it's a "Hero" class?

Re:Classes are already out of whack (1)

Krater76 (810350) | more than 5 years ago | (#24279265)

There's really no imbalance since you can always roll any of the classes. Flavor of the Month got you down? Roll one.

This won't be any different from the DK. Everyone will be able to roll one. At first I thought it'd at least require you to sacrifice a character you already leveled or do a series of quests but I haven't heard anything more about that in a long time.

Re:Classes are already out of whack (1)

Durrok (912509) | more than 5 years ago | (#24279365)

I agree with you and actually my resto druid just hit 64 last night. ;) Mostly just because our Battle Group is severely lacking in healers while it seems like all alliance has on our side is healers and rogues.

Re:Classes are already out of whack (1)

melikamp (631205) | more than 5 years ago | (#24279495)

I agree with all of the above. WoW is all about RPS [wikipedia.org] . I am a Mage, so restoration Druids could as well be immortal when we fight one on one, but on the other hand I can run away from virtually any class (even hunter, unless BM) and so, in a way, I get to choose my battles.

I don't see what the commotion is all about. DK will fit into that picture just fine, and will probably change considerably over the first six months.

Re:Classes are already out of whack (1)

Durrok (912509) | more than 5 years ago | (#24280241)

You can run from a rogue? With slow poisons, deadly throw, blind, stuns, etc? My main is a frost mage and while from time to time I can get away generally a rogue on me is eventual death unless I have someone helping me out. Usually it's not even worth trying as I have to blow most of my cool downs to get away... and the rogue is still alive.

Re:Classes are already out of whack (1)

MeanderingMind (884641) | more than 5 years ago | (#24280275)

He could be a fire or elementalist mage. Blazing Speed is a pretty frequent proc against fast attacking Rogues.

Re:Classes are already out of whack (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24280531)

Have you considered rerolling? It sounds like you suck.

Re:Classes are already out of whack (1)

melikamp (631205) | more than 5 years ago | (#24280719)

Without slowing poison, I just need to blink, slow, and keep running. If a rogue is well prepared with poisons and stuns, it may end badly, but with some luck I can simply insta-sheep and walk away.

Re:Classes are already out of whack (1)

DurendalMac (736637) | more than 6 years ago | (#24283555)

Cloak of Shadows + sprint + stunlock. Makes it tough to get away. However, as a rogue, I find a lot of clothies to be very soft and chewy.

Re:Classes are already out of whack (1)

Tekninja_Hawk (961855) | more than 5 years ago | (#24279589)

for sure there is imbalances but they all have their downfalls as well.

Rogues cheat death is basically useless now, im actually pretty sure its broken unless you need 500 resilience to have it be effective, mortal strike warriors can generally crush rogues without trying. However, resto druids are one of those classes where i cant actually find a reason theyre not imbalanced.

root them in place, they shift out of it, wing clip/crippling poison/frostbolt/etc. shift out of it, all the while HOTs on them. it literally does take 4 to 5 people just to kill one, especially if they are wearing good resilience gear. did i mention i hate swiftmend?

Re:Classes are already out of whack (1)

fitten (521191) | more than 5 years ago | (#24280589)

Welcome to class based systems... All that time invested in a single toon and as soon as the nerfbat swings, you're hosed. Your only solution is to have a toon for every possible combination of race/class so you can switch whenever the flavor-of-the-month changes.

Sorry yer not good enough... (2, Insightful)

SpiritMaster (869780) | more than 5 years ago | (#24279643)

Sadly Blizzard seems to have lost the point behind expansions first with Outlands, and now with this new class. My greatest concern is that rather than focusing on new content that everyone can enjoy as they did in the original, instead they have just ramped up the difficulty on mobs so much that only insanely well geared people will even SEE most of the end game content. Now I'm not sure if this was an attempt by Blizzard to introduce more of the 'teamwork' element that served them so well, but it seems to have come at the cost of alienating the casual gamer. Tank classes in particular seem to have it the hardest since they are REQUIRED to have nothing but the best in order to survive, and often get replaced in favor of Druids and their 'I Win' tank form (Dire Bear). Now granted all classes are situational but it seems that in their haste to apply a multi-use class system, they have succeeded in seriously unbalancing key aspects. Needless to say this will come as no surprise to long term players, as Blizzards track record at 'balancing' classes is spotty.

Heroic Dungeons were also a poor idea, since by the time you are capable of doing them, your... well, sick of doing them. A better idea would have been to create more Zul'Aman type instances for heroics so that once a player can run them he will have new content to explore, rather than repeating the cookie-cutter method of getting through the instance as fast as possible for the badges. At the end of the day I believe this expansions success will have less to do about what new bells as whistles they add (after all everything gets old eventually), and more about how well they cater to the casual gamers. Please Blizzard remember that some of us want to have FUN, not farm gear endlessly.

Re:Sorry yer not good enough... (1)

Tridus (79566) | more than 5 years ago | (#24280173)

Tanks get replaced by Druids? (Feral tanks actually scale badly past T4 content, Warriors and Paladins are safe, and Warriors are in fact specifically required.)

Vanilla WoW not having content only the most hardcore with the best gear can do? (Never heard of the great blunder, Naxxramus? So few people saw that one they're redoing it and putting it back in Wrath.)

Man, did you stop playing 2 years ago or something?

Re:Sorry yer not good enough... (1)

MeanderingMind (884641) | more than 5 years ago | (#24280257)

A few points:

1) Only insanely well geared people saw most of the endgame content before BC.
2) BC raiding is more casual friendly than pre-BC raiding.
3) Heroic Dungeons were a good idea implemented badly.
3b) The development resources used to create Heroic Dungeons wouldn't have been enough to create a new raid (they're probably separate teams anyway).
4) There's plenty of fun to be had already, and Blizzard looks poised to improve further still.

Re:Sorry yer not good enough... (1)

YodaToad (164273) | more than 5 years ago | (#24280301)

First off, your entire post makes you seem like someone who hasn't even experienced most of the game you're trying to talk about.

My greatest concern is that rather than focusing on new content that everyone can enjoy as they did in the original, instead they have just ramped up the difficulty on mobs so much that only insanely well geared people will even SEE most of the end game content.

There was a gear reset at 70, everyone was on an even level. You have just as much of a chance at getting to the end-game as everyone else who's seen it has. How do you think they got that gear? It didn't just fall from the sky. There will be a gear reset at 80 as well. The entire point of an MMO is to entice people to want more and better stuff. If you got to a point where the gear was so easy to attain that you could do it playing a few hours a week you'd lose a lot of subscribers due to the lack of a reason to play.

Now I'm not sure if this was an attempt by Blizzard to introduce more of the 'teamwork' element that served them so well, but it seems to have come at the cost of alienating the casual gamer.

The game is more casual friendly than ever before which is why your "in the original it was better" makes absolutely no sense.

Tank classes in particular seem to have it the hardest since they are REQUIRED to have nothing but the best in order to survive, and often get replaced in favor of Druids and their 'I Win' tank form (Dire Bear). Now granted all classes are situational but it seems that in their haste to apply a multi-use class system, they have succeeded in seriously unbalancing key aspects. Needless to say this will come as no surprise to long term players, as Blizzards track record at 'balancing' classes is spotty.

To use your tank example, you wouldn't get very far if you tried to do the end game you're talking about with 3 feral druids.

Heroic Dungeons were also a poor idea, since by the time you are capable of doing them, your... well, sick of doing them.

I'd agree here up until the point they nerfed heroics by a ton some months after TBC came out.

A better idea would have been to create more Zul'Aman type instances for heroics so that once a player can run them he will have new content to explore, rather than repeating the cookie-cutter method of getting through the instance as fast as possible for the badges.

The point of heroics (and Kara) are to get gear so you can do more Zul'Aman type instances. That's why they call it progression. You move from Kara/Heroics on to ZA/TK/SSC on to BT/Hyjal on to Sunwell.

At the end of the day I believe this expansions success will have less to do about what new bells as whistles they add (after all everything gets old eventually), and more about how well they cater to the casual gamers. Please Blizzard remember that some of us want to have FUN, not farm gear endlessly.

In other words "Please Blizzard, hand me more gear!"

Re:Sorry yer not good enough... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 5 years ago | (#24280935)

They did do this. They had attunments for stuff like SSC and Kara, but people bitched and they removed the attunment.

Re:Sorry yer not good enough... (0, Flamebait)

DarkProphet (114727) | more than 5 years ago | (#24282035)

Yeah, so now we have a bunch of dumbshits that don't know how to play their class whining that they can't find a Kara group. So much for progression. Instance attunement is one of the few things they had right. You were almost guaranteed to get some really good blues and even epics before you hit Kara. Now you have a bunch of idiots going fully in greens and QQ'ing how it isn't their fault that the raid can't get past Attumen. Bullshit! They should have left well enough alone. They didn't nerf attunement to please people, they did it to groom everyone for WotLK.

Re:Sorry yer not good enough... (1)

smegged (1067080) | more than 6 years ago | (#24283145)

This is a typical elitist jerk type attitude. Most people pay good money to play and want to see a majority of the content.

Removal of attunements was a godsend for the billion and one alts out there these days. Why should someone have to go through the whole process of attunement AGAIN, which is really just an arbitrary time sink (when my prot pally did BM for the kara key I so overgeared the instance that it was a joke - I took no damage and ended up tanking the instance half naked). Sure it means worse players can see more content, but to me that just means that paying customers get to have more fun, which is what I want out of a game.

Guilds quickly work out who the good players are to bring to raids anyway, so there is still competative pressure to get a raid slot. It just means that less people get turned off by the dauntingly steep time cost to start raiding.

Re:Sorry yer not good enough... (1)

YodaToad (164273) | more than 6 years ago | (#24285759)

Actually, the elitist jerk type attitude would be to say that removing the attunements for BT/Hyjal was going too far to appease the casuals because the first 8 loot pinata bosses in those (combined) instances were meant as rewards for progressing that far. There are guilds getting loot from BT/Hyjal that still can't kill Kael or Vashj.

Wow's a good game, but its not the class skills... (2, Interesting)

r2rknot (1102517) | more than 5 years ago | (#24280323)

...that will make it overpowered. If does not get the gear to push those talents and skills they may very well flop. Druids specced feral before the expansion was released where considered sub-par DPS and not a great threat to players PvP wise. After when the gear designed for them was released, the weeping was so great they have to scale back some of the abilities.

If they are not thought of in the itemization then or their gear is itemized poorly. Then no matter how cool the abilities are, Deathknights may not become the uber class some fear it will.

Re:Wow's a good game, but its not the class skills (1)

Achoi77 (669484) | more than 6 years ago | (#24285267)

Which is tragic, because these Hero classes don't feel so... heroic.

I thought hero classes should have been progression based depending on class. As it stands essentially the hero class is nothing more than 'just another tank' or 'just another melee dps' or 'omg war with deathcoil? NERF!' It appears to have nothing to do with the main avatar you are playing.

Yes yes, I understand that the leveling curve in WoW has gotten so easy that many people have multiple characters on one account, but seriously, this is nothing more than just a partial reroll. It would have been more interesting to see the culmination of progression based on existing toons - you do the 'hero' quests on your warlock,then you unlock the warlock 'hero' deathknight ability - to wear plate. Or do it on your priest, and unlock the 'hero' ability of the deathknight - to raise the dead and make your own skeleton army. Or on your shaman/druid and get the ability to cast 'death and decay.' That would have been more interesting - and you wouldn't feel like you're just shelving another toon out of the way to play the deathknight.

Wotl (1)

Exstatica (769958) | more than 5 years ago | (#24281123)

you can find anything you want to know about all the class changes http://wotlkwiki.info/index.php/Classes [wotlkwiki.info] they get updated there as they become available.
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