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Games Entertainment Your Rights Online

Valve's Gabe Newell On DRM 241

Posted by Soulskill from the he's-pretty-steamed dept.
Ars Technica is running a story about recent comments by Valve's Gabe Newell in which he bluntly stated, "As far as DRM goes, most DRM strategies are just dumb. The goal should be to create greater value for customers through service value (make it easy for me to play my games whenever and wherever I want to), not by decreasing the value of a product (maybe I'll be able to play my game and maybe I won't)." Ars then points out a response by Microsoft's Games for Windows Community Manager Ryan Miller suggesting Rockstar Games' recent decision not to have install limits for the PC version of GTA IV made the use of SecuROM acceptable. GameSetWatch has a related piece discussing the difficulty in measuring piracy and enforcing infringement laws.
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Valve's Gabe Newell On DRM

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  • I like Steam (Score:5, Insightful)

    by iamwhoiamtoday ( 1177507 ) on Thursday December 04, 2008 @04:44AM (#25986281)

    I really like how Steam currently works. Only one computer can be logged into the same account at a time, I can download / install all games on any computer, it works (mostly) in Wine. I also don't have to mess around with disks.

    Steam seems to me to be a rather effective method of DRM. I can only be logged into the account from ONE computer at a time, and I can play my games. what's the problem?

    • Re:I like Steam (Score:5, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 04, 2008 @04:54AM (#25986361)

      My account was deactivated and they simply refused to tell me why, just that it was shut down due to suspicious activity (I had steam installed on about 6 computers that I own). They actually suggested I could create a new account and purchase the games again if i wanted to play. If you think you own the software you purchase through Steam, you are dead wrong. Valve can flip a switch and turn it off whenever they want. I'll never buy another game from steam or another Valve product ever again. I'll just download any new half life games from isohunt. the way I see it, they owe me about 350 dollars so I'll simply download anything I want to cover that

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by Anonymous Coward

        Actually, my fear with steam is not the account being disabled- that did happen once, they then fixed it after a week. But VAC bans, as in, someone steals your password, cheats on the account, gets it VAC'd, then you lose the value of every multiplayer game in your Steam account. They'll undo disables- they will NOT undo VAC bans.

        • For me thats one of the things valves adds. If your account contributes to cheating, then fuck you. Your still free to play single player games and on non-vac servers, what GP said is much more scarey (if its more than a glitch as it was for you) the idea that they can disable your entire account single-player stuff too.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Atriqus ( 826899 )
        I've logged into plenty more than 6 computers with my steam account. Either they like me much more than you, or the suspicious activity in question was something other than the installation count.

      • Re:I like Steam (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Hatta ( 162192 ) on Thursday December 04, 2008 @11:53AM (#25989505) Journal

        Have you considered taking them to court? $350 is about the right amount to make it worthwhile going to small claims court. The nice thing about small claims court, no lawyers. I'd argue that the clauses in their TOS allowing them to terminate service on a mere belief of wrongdoing, with no appeal or arbitration process, or refund of any kind are unconscionable. Look into it. At the very least, you'll cause Valve $350 worth of trouble, and it might even make a nice story for /.

        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          by BitZtream ( 692029 )

          I just feel that it should be pointed out that the 'no lawyers' thing only applies to individuals suing individuals, not individuals suing a company or the other way around.

          A corp like Valve is a legal entity not a person, when they go to small claims court they are allowed to be represented by a lawyer on the corps behalf. Don't think for a second that by suing them you're going to meet Gabe and be able to have a battle of wits in front of the judge.

          You'll meet one of their lawyers who will promptly tear

      • My case was very simple. A friend of mine bought Half Life 2 and didn't liked it (crazy guy...), so he gave me the game.

        Only then I figured out that it is impossible to transfer a game from one account to another! There is no way I can play the game without stopping him from playing his other games. I contacted steam support and they just told me that it is impossible to transfer the game.

        This really sucks. I, for one, just began to hate valve and steam. I don't intend to spend my money there ever again.

    • Re:I like Steam (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Drinking Bleach ( 975757 ) on Thursday December 04, 2008 @05:19AM (#25986505)

      Steam is basically the sanest solution to keep things clean for legitimate users. You just buy a game and download it, however many times you like or need. Pirates are always going to crack DRM, there's little reason to battle them only to punish legitimate users. See any torrent site and look for cracked versions of Valve games that no longer require Steam -- they're not hard to find, and it just furthers the point that pirates will do whatever to get a free lunch.

      Steam is non-intrusive and allows all legitimate users to get and use games easily.

      • Re:I like Steam (Score:5, Insightful)

        by AuMatar ( 183847 ) on Thursday December 04, 2008 @05:54AM (#25986701)

        Unless Steam decides you're not the owner, you lose the password, they think you're a cheater, etc. Then they take away all your games. I'll ignore DRM in bought games because it can be disabled, I will never buy a steam game.

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by Burnhard ( 1031106 )
          IANAL, but you should have legal redress if you haven't broken the TOS. My nephew got a VAC ban for using a "wall hack". In effect he had to start a brand new steam account because he only played VAC based multi-player games. In fact the only people I've heard about who have had their accounts disabled or VAC bans are almost always cheating/hacking in some way or engaged in some other nefarious activity.

          So the trade-off with Steam is as follows: you have the convenience of having a delivery platform y

      • Does steam require an internet connection to play, though?

        That's one of my big problems with DRM in general. I've run across it with iTunes purchases (the reason I don't buy off itunes anymore unless it's something I can't find anywhere else or I just want one track) and I've had the problem with my 360 in the past, too.

        At my last apartment, the cable modem was spotty at best during the evenings for months. I was unable to play my xboxlivearcade games on my 360 because the latency on the 'net wasn't allowin

        • It requires an internet connection to register, but not to play. I'm sure that can still be a deal breaker for some people. My experience is limited to Valve games, I haven't had any problem with any of the games I own.

          • maybe I'll register for that... I'm curious how left4dead plays on a PC (as opposed to my 360).

            Other than that, I can't think of any games I'd wanna play on the service.

            I mostly only game when I don't have access to an internet connection since 90% of what I do on my computer requires it... it kinda sucks that I'm so dependent on the internets.

        • I was unable to play my xboxlivearcade games on my 360 because the latency on the 'net wasn't allowing me to log into xboxlive.

          When you buy games on Xbox Live, the purchase gets attached to two things, your account and the system on which you bought the game. If you've only owned one console, then you should be able to play the game without having to connect to Live. If you have your account on a second (or third) system, then you can play the full game as long as you're logged into Live. If you've

          • my account has lived on many different units... my account originally lived on my old roommate's xbox which RRoD'd and was repaired/replaced 6 times, so far (it RRoD'd again last month and he still hasn't gotten it back)... I've since purchased my own 360 which is where my account lives now.

            I've also transfered my account to my friend's unit to show him some XBLA games without him needing to purchase his own copy.

            I guess I'll look into the license transfer tool.

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by Omestes ( 471991 )

          The iTunes thing is just odd, I've never had a problem with offline play. Right now I'm using a MacMini as my jukebox, and it hardly ever is online, yet it hasn't given me any problems with iTMS purchases. As far as DRM goes, iTunes is the best, its rather convenient, and non intrusive (which doesn't go so far, its like saying "as far as dictators go, Castro is the best"). You probably found a bug, or accidentally clicked "unauthorize", or such.

          My problem with DRM such as Steam, is that it is only trustwo

          • Well,

            theoretically

            , Valve will unlock all the Steam installs if they go out of business. I have no idea if it will actually work that way, of course. There could just as easily be "unavoidable technical issues" (i.e. newly developed contractual obligations with former competitors or whatever) that prevent them from unlocking the games.

            Looking at old games, I guess I can point out how many needed a manual, or a key decoder spinner or whatever. So many of those have been cracked (eventually). I can still pl

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by GFree678 ( 1363845 )

      what's the problem?

      Let's hope you don't want to resell a game you purchased from Steam.

      Let's hope that VAC works perfectly and won't ban you from VAC servers by accident because you were running something perfectly legit which happened to trip its detection mechanism.

      Let's hope that when Gabe says Valve will release an unlock tool so you can play your games when/if Valve ever collapses, he actually follows through.

      Disclaimer: I've used Steam for years and continue to do so. I think it's great... as long as

      • "Let's hope that VAC works perfectly and won't ban you from VAC servers by accident because you were running something perfectly legit which happened to trip its detection mechanism."

        PROTIP: VAC is triggered by the detection of entire known binaries. You can't trip it accidentally without having the cheating mechanism on-disk, and if you do have it on-disk... well that's your fault.
        I always wonder why there's some poor cheater who comes up with this "I was banned but I didn't cheat" excuse, because it doe

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by Omestes ( 471991 )

          PROTIP: VAC is triggered by the detection of entire known binaries. You can't trip it accidentally without having the cheating mechanism on-disk, and if you do have it on-disk... well that's your fault.

          As if software can never go wrong. False positives will always exist.

          Yes, there is a very slim chance of it happening, but it still is possible.

          There are other ways it can happen, like hacked accounts, or such.

          Also... Having a cheating program on your HDD, is not the same thing as cheating. Isn't that some

    • Re:I like Steam (Score:5, Interesting)

      by D.A. Zollinger ( 549301 ) on Thursday December 04, 2008 @06:20AM (#25986831) Homepage Journal

      what's the problem?

      The problem is that once you purchase the game, you cannot return it, you cannot sell it, and you cannot give it away/transfer it to another party.

      As well, despite the fact that the steam version has no packaging costs, no printing costs, no warehousing costs, no stocking, shipping, or handling costs, you are still paying the same for the game as everyone else who bought it in the store.

      Finally, the Steam store does not answer to market concerns, and operates arbitrarily. For example: In most stores, once the demand for a game has worn off, the price comes down in order to move the remaining copies of a game to make room for new games. In the Steam store, costs remain the same until the vendor authorizes a price reduction based on arbitrary decisions (increase sales volume, allow for pricing difference between game and sequel, etc.).

      The technology embedded in Steam would allow for the first issue to be resolved, should Valve care to pursue this. As well, a second Steam store, not operated by Valve, yet accessible on the Steam system would ensure that the last two issues are properly addressed.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Bombula ( 670389 )

        The problem is that once you purchase the game, you cannot return it, you cannot sell it, and you cannot give it away/transfer it to another party.

        This is the 'software as a service' model. You don't own a product, and the license to use the service is itself not a product either. So you have nothing you can sell or trade. You have no asset, in other words. This makes you vulnerable because unlike with a product, to get any utility from a service you are totally dependent upon the service provider.

      • "As well, despite the fact that the steam version has no packaging costs, no printing costs, no warehousing costs, no stocking, shipping, or handling costs, you are still paying the same for the game as everyone else who bought it in the store."

        Which highlights that games are priced for what people will pay; the cost has nothing whatsoever to do with the costs of production/development.

        The corollary to this, of course, is that piracy drives up the cost of games. In fact, piracy drives down the revenue of g

      • The problem is that once you purchase the game, you cannot return it, you cannot sell it, and you cannot give it away/transfer it to another party.

        Agreed with that, though in theory you could sell someone your Steam account (unless that's against the EULA. I haven't read it)

        As well, despite the fact that the steam version has no packaging costs, no printing costs, no warehousing costs, no stocking, shipping, or handling costs, you are still paying the same for the game as everyone else who bought it in th

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by Patrik_AKA_RedX ( 624423 )
      Yesterday I wanted to play Halflife during my lunch break on my laptop. Mind that this is my private laptop and therefore I've no internet connection at work. Ofcourse Steam decided that I can't play until I've reconnected to internet first.
      Makes me wonder why I bought it instead of pirating it. I've had done the latter I would have been able to play.
      Steam is a nice way to distribute games, but honestly the requirement to connect every so often is a pain in the ass for those of us who rarely find the time

      • Re:I like Steam (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Kattspya ( 994189 ) on Thursday December 04, 2008 @08:35AM (#25987465)
        Hmmm... looks like you're right. The normal behavior for STEAM is to just fall back to offline mode when it can't reach the servers. I just disabled my network connection and tried to start STEAM and it wouldn't run in offline mode. After going online without updating anything and then trying again offline mode worked fine. Perhaps there is some silly timeout or maybe it bugs out but that behavior isn't acceptable. Try contacting customer support and ask what the hell is up.

      • Steam has an offline mode. A little bit of reading would have told you that.

        • Off-line mode only works if you go into off-line mode *while still on-line*. A little bit of trail and error would have told you that.

          • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

            by travbrad ( 622986 )

            So to activate off-line mode you have to be on-line? *head explodes*

            The only games I play on steam are online/multi-player anyway, so not a big deal for me. For people wanting to play single-player or against bots though, that's completely retarded. Better off pirating if you are playing single-player games I guess..

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by MR.Mic ( 937158 )
        Uncheck "Don't save account credentials on this computer" in steam settings.
        Then you only have to log in once, and the computer will allow you to go into offline mode any time after that.

        It works for my laptop when I can't get wifi when traveling.

    • I'm mixed on Steam. I like the automatic downloads and automatic updates, but I'm wary of situations where 2 or 3 people in my family want to play different Steam powered games at the same time. They're locked into one account.

      I won't be buying GTA IV on Steam for that reason. I don't want to lock the family out of Peggle.

    • I like Steam, too. I have a sneaking suspicion that the authentication servers for Steam will be around for much longer than I could have ever held onto my installation media. The model works better for me than dealing with scratched disks and empty CD cases.

      I can download / install all games on any computer, it works (mostly) in Wine. I also don't have to mess around with disks.

      I found out I can move my Steam folder to any PC and "it just works" with valid credentials. I was delighted to see that I can ru

    • I hate the fact that you're still dependent on logging into Steam to play the game. Sure, you can set it for "offline" mode, but to do that you have to, guess what, Log In! So your internet connection goes down, or Steam rolls out a huge update and everybody and their grandmother are pushing steam servers into non-responsiveness (as happened with the TF2 update earlier this year), what then? You can't play HL2 Episode 3 or whatever other single player game you purchased through them until the connection'

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by vux984 ( 928602 )

      Steam seems to me to be a rather effective method of DRM. I can only be logged into the account from ONE computer at a time, and I can play my games. what's the problem?

      1) One day you might be part of a family, and will consider sharing your stuff.

      And then it will happen that you want to play YOUR copy of game X online, while someone else in your family wants to play YOUR copy of game Y online. Steam's DRM prevents this.

      That would be like not being allowed to read ANY of your books because your wife was cur

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by morari ( 1080535 )

      The problem is that I have to purchase four different copies of Team Fortress 2 just to play it with my family on my private home network. Several other Steam games that I've tried don't have this problem as they can be played in Offline Mode. Of course then the wife and I can't play against someone online. I guess that scenario doesn't sound as legitimate though. However, I feel that if I don't own the games I buy, I should at least have a home license. That extends to any software, really.

  • Piracy, oh really? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by kvezach ( 1199717 ) on Thursday December 04, 2008 @04:46AM (#25986289)
    DRM can't be about piracy. In the very best case, it's about opening day piracy; any longer and the cracks are already out, and you don't have to be a wizard to go to TPB or GameCopyWorld and download them.

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Spore was 0-day'd, it really is just about pissing off legitimate users.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Asmor ( 775910 )

        0-day? Pfft.

        It's been a while since I did much with warez, but I distinctly remember many things (including the game Rune) being available for download much sooner than it was available to buy.

  • Priceless (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Goldberg's Pants ( 139800 ) on Thursday December 04, 2008 @04:47AM (#25986301) Journal

    Gabe comes out and says this the day after GTA IV has released on Steam complete with Securom.

    Dear Mr Miller: No, it is NOT acceptable, and I will no longer be buying any games that follow what you consider acceptable. So many of the issues people have with running new titles is down to the copy protection.

    I really want the PC to die as a mainstream gaming platform to be honest. (And I say that as a hardcore PC gamer for the last 12 years.) Despite all the mounting evidence that shows it's ineffectual and pointless, copy protection is getting worse and worse. Kill the platform entirely, EA and the like can fuck off to the consoles and stay there in their happy little pirate free zone (yeah right), and the PC can go back to serving niche genres for a smaller customer base that are actually treated like customers and not thieves.

    • That's a pretty ignorant view point when companies are making millions from sales of PC games despite the warez scene.

      DRM is a waste of time for any game played online when you need a CDKey to identify yourself with the server. And that's all of them these days. There's very little reply value in the single player modes of some of these games.

      • Surely you don't mean to tell me that legit CDKeys can't be generated? ;)

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Winckle ( 870180 )

          They can be generated, but they won't check against the database of legitimately generated keys.

        • Figuring out the algorithm for a keygen takes about as long as cracking an executable. Either way it's a bunch of math

          • I would expect it to take MUCH longer if the key algorithm is correctly designed.

            • True you can get direct feedback from the files as to whether or not your crack is working and you can monitor memory where a keygen is quite a bit more hit and miss.

              • Lets say every key consisted of a clear part describing what it was a key for and it's serial number. and then a digital signature. If the key is encoded in base32 and we use a sha1 hash for our signature that would give us a key arround 40 characters (assuming say an 8 bit product code and a 32 bit serial number)

                Without the private key for the signature (which need never be placed on an internet connected machine) the only way to make a keygen would be to crack the public/private key encryption used which

    • Re:Priceless (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Sj0 ( 472011 ) on Thursday December 04, 2008 @11:58AM (#25989583) Journal

      I think you're way off-base.

      The games I buy off of xbox live have exactly ONE install, and god help you if you delete the game.

      This is better than a PC?

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by mrchaotica ( 681592 ) *

      I really want the PC to die as a mainstream gaming platform to be honest.

      Why? DRM on the PC may be bad, but consoles are completely locked!

      I want console gaming to die!

      • "but consoles are completely locked!"

        They are, but your console doesn't get hosed by a bad implementation of DRM, and better, you can sell your console games when you're done. You can also loan them to your friends if they want to play.

      • but consoles are completely locked!

        Not completely locked. Sony doesn't care what you do with your PS2 or PS3 as long as you do it under Linux under a run-time environment/hypervisor. I'm glad consoles are mostly locked, it keeps crappy cheapo eastern European dev houses from releasing all their Myst clones and Diablo clones with bad production values on them.

  • There's nothing blunt about it. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by subreality ( 157447 ) on Thursday December 04, 2008 @05:10AM (#25986447)

    The goal should be to create greater value for customers through service value (make it easy for me to play my games whenever and wherever I want to)

    No, the goal is to increase revenues by decreasing piracy and preventing sale of used games. What is said above is their method of making it palatable to the consumer.

    If the goal was *really* to "create greater value" and "make it easy to play games whenever and wherever" the solution would be simple: DON'T USE DRM.

    I understand the need to fight piracy, but quit trying to spin it like it's being done for me, or that there's some silver lining.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Loibisch ( 964797 )

      The thing is that some forms of DRM allow for distribution schemes previously not possible. I can see your point when talking about hard copies you buy at a store. DRM in those copies is definitely not helping the consumer.

      Now take Steam on the other hand. Sure, all of this would also be possible withOUT DRM, but it wouldn't be much of a business model if everyone could just download everything to any computer and just leave it there for someone else to play. This would be equivalent to being able to copy a

      • Re:There's nothing blunt about it. (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Stormwatch ( 703920 ) <`moc.liamtoh' `ta' `oarigogirdor'> on Thursday December 04, 2008 @06:40AM (#25986929) Homepage

        Sure, all of this would also be possible withOUT DRM, but it wouldn't be much of a business model if everyone could just download everything to any computer and just leave it there for someone else to play.

        But that is what already happens anyway! Take a look at The Pirate Bay, Mininova, Black Cats, whatever... name any game, it's probably there. DRM is a serious nuisance to legit clients, but merely a quick and fun challenge to crackers. All this DRM-mania does nothing but make piracy look more attractive!

        Gotta admire the GOG [gog.com] people... they sell some nice stuff at decent prices, and don't give you any of that DRM bullshit.

        • Sure, all of this would also be possible withOUT DRM, but it wouldn't be much of a business model if everyone could just download everything to any computer and just leave it there for someone else to play.

          But that is what already happens anyway! Take a look at The Pirate Bay, Mininova, Black Cats, whatever... name any game, it's probably there. DRM is a serious nuisance to legit clients, but merely a quick and fun challenge to crackers. All this DRM-mania does nothing but make piracy look more attractive!

          I'm sorry, but any argument starting with "pirating it off the internet is easier than buying" is just stupid. Yeah, of course pirating it is easier, but it's also illegal and can get you caught, possibly costing you more than your house is worth. So wanna take the risk? Fine with me...I don't.

          Gotta admire the GOG [gog.com] people... they sell some nice stuff at decent prices, and don't give you any of that DRM bullshit.

          Yeah, because implementing a DRM scheme for games that old and which they don't have the source code to would certainly cost more money than ever being made off the titles.

      • ...but it wouldn't be much of a business model if everyone could just download everything to any computer and just leave it there for someone else to play.

        In 20+ years of computing, this has always been the case, and it hasn't come close to destroying the business model. This is simply a perpetual 'slippery slope'.

        So in this case, DRM actually makes a new distribution channel possible....

        I suppose. I mean, really, all it's doing is comforting a bunch of people that think you are a thief.

    • Re:There's nothing blunt about it. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Dunbal ( 464142 ) on Thursday December 04, 2008 @06:10AM (#25986791)

      No, the goal is to increase revenues by decreasing piracy and preventing sale of used games.

            No, the goal (for the DRM peddler) is to PRETEND to offer increased revenues by PRETENDING to decrease piracy and prevent sale of used games. However the only revenue that is actually increased is the "security" company's.

            No one wants to buy shitty games. The good games are cracked usually within hours of release with few exceptions. However good games still make money. If Electronic Arts could build a multi-billion dollar company by releasing endless versions of the same steaming piles of shit, there's money to be made despite piracy.

            But it's so easy to blame lack of sales on copyright infringement. Piracy and sales are DIRECTLY, not inversely, proportional. If a game sucks NO ONE WILL PIRATE IT. So if your game didn't sell it's because IT SUCKS, not because everyone managed to download it before going to the store.

    • I don't think it's spin. DRM doesn't just refer to companies stealing your rights, sometimes DRM can refer to your right to manage digital media. In this case, Steam is two types of DRM. It protects Valve from piracy and allows you to manage your games from a central location.

      "Don't use DRM" is too broad. What is a problem, though, is DRM that places the "rights" of the producer too far ahead of that of the buyer. Basically, when it starts managing our rights when we don't want it to.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by argent ( 18001 )

        In this case, Steam is two types of DRM. It protects Valve from piracy and allows you to manage your games from a central location.

        You don't need Steam to keep a copy of your games on a server. Steam just forces you to only use THEIR server.

        "Copy Protection" or "DRM", it's only there to restrict the purchaser's rights. It may be necessary to do that in some cases, but that doesn't change the fact that... no matter what you call it... it can only *restrict* what you can do with the software you legally insta

  • Funny he should mention that... (Score:4, Informative)

    by Balinares ( 316703 ) on Thursday December 04, 2008 @05:41AM (#25986609)

    Just yesterday evening, I was browsing PC games at the local store, having reinstalled a Windows partition recently, and spotted the box version of Portal. Awesome, I told myself, been wanting to play that one ever since I heard of it, let's purchase this shit. (Mind you, everything about the plot and even the ending are utterly spoiled by now, but who cares, the gameplay seems terrific.)

    But for safety, I checked out the small print at the back of the box.

    Which said something along the lines of, the game you are shelling out money for will just plain not run outright, you'll have to allow it to go online and then maybe our servers will allow it to run if you accept an EULA that you'll know nothing about until then.

    End result: no go, sorry. If I give money for a product, I want it to run when I feel like running it. One less sale for you, dude. (Not that you give a damn about one sale, I'm sure.)

    • Re:Funny he should mention that... (Score:5, Informative)

      by JorDan Clock ( 664877 ) <jordanclock@gmail.com> on Thursday December 04, 2008 @06:17AM (#25986823)
      I didn't have any problem installing The Orange Box on a PC when the wireless network was down. When I finally got it back online, Steam updated the game and that was it. I can continue playing in "offline mode" which is exactly the same as "online mode" except I don't get friends list updates and snazzy things like that.

      • Thanks for the interesting input -- I'd mod you up, but I have already contributed to the thread, obviously.

        If the game (which was standalone Portal, mind you, not the Orange Box) can indeed be installed and played offline, then my objection no longer holds. The box, however, does explicitly state otherwise; I'd like to be able to understand why.

    • Get the xbox 360 version of portal (in the orange box) then.

  • DRM vs. Torture. (Score:3, Funny)

    by crhylove ( 205956 ) <rhy@leperkhanz.com> on Thursday December 04, 2008 @06:18AM (#25986825) Homepage Journal

    DRM is a lot like torture:

    It doesn't work.
    It only hurts innocent people.
    The truly guilty completely avoid it.
    It makes the person doing it less popular.
    It's unpleasant.
    It's foolish.
    It's evil.
    Despite clear evidence that it IN NO WAY helps anyone, it is continuing to be done by a large institution against innocent people and other victims that have no relation to the initial causality.

    If you are pro DRM, or pro torture, you are either horrifically ignorant, willfully stupid, or malevolently mis-informed.

    Either way, do the math (or the research), and please wake the fuck up.

    Torture and DRM are outmoded and outdated ideas that fail miserably at the assigned task, and should be completely eliminated, for the benefit of all, most importantly you promoting it.

    • It's evil.

      It'll be a great day in the world when there's no genocide, starvation, or actual torture and we can call DRM evil. Until then, I think "mildly annoying" might be more appropriate.

  • "Until publishers do more to welcome their legitimate customers as friends instead of treating them as potential pirates, piracy will continue to eat at profits and morale."

  • "The truth is what is; what should be is a dirty lie. -- Lenny Bruce"

    The truth is that DRM sucks.

    What should be is that the developers and producers should be adding additional value for legitimate consumers.

  • ... 3 of them can't play for more than 5-10 minutes without securom bombing and forcing the game to close instantly. The other 2 can't even get it to start up.

    Aparently it only cost Rockstar $200k to cause this much inconvenience to their legitimate users.

    Am waiting to see how long it takes for a fully functional crack to come out. Been just over 48 hours so far and it appears to be harder to crack cleanly than your average copy protection. Rockstar are claiming that it's "Uncrackable", which may not have b

  • I'm surprised nobody here is talking about the real feature of Steam that got me to accept it - even to change my buying style to buy games through steam first. That's the Steam Community.

    I play TF2 on the same set of servers at fairly regular times. Over the months, I've become acquaintances with many of the skilled players who also play on the same servers. When they first started sending me friend invites, I was hesitant, but decided to try it.

    It's turned out to be a blast. I can look at my friends list

  • Support GOG.com to show them that drm-free sells (Score:3, Informative)

    by Optic7 ( 688717 ) on Thursday December 04, 2008 @04:17PM (#25993689)
    Don't forget about gog.com where you can buy games that are completely DRM-free, and cheap. Show the industry that this is what we want.

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